Final Necropsy Report

I finally got the necropsy report from OSU. I had to call the vet that did it to get it in the English version and to explain it. Here is what the summary said:

01/03/11: Microscopy has revealed some changes that are important to consider if you
are suspecting a feed-related problem. As stated below, this rabbit has a lot of intestinal
damage and although we have not demonstrated any one main enteric pathogen, with
rabbits all that is often required is an imbalance/shift in the normal flora to cause clinical
problems. Having said that, I do think that these changes are unusually "hot" - often
enteric problems in rabbits have very little inflammation while Julia has managed to
perforate the gut wall. I see a hint of a vascular damage so it may be that toxins absorbed
from the gut are affecting the local blood supply.

Three other severe changes are seen here - renal damage that appears to be noninfectious/
inflammatory and mineralization of both the heart and the lung. The last two
often go together in rabbits under the heading of metastatic mineralization. This
phenomenon is not well understood but the two things most frequently blamed are kidney
damage and inappropriate levels of Vitamin D, calcium/phosphorus in the diet. Since
there is renal damage we can look at this two different ways; A - intestinal problem leads
to dehydration and electrolyte abnormalities with subsequent renal damage. B - a toxin
not necessarily related to the gut damage has targeted the kidney. There are certain
mycotoxins that might be able to do this so it is good that you are having a mycotoxin
screen done on the feed.
If you do get some abnormal results on the feed analysis please let us know so that we
can update the records on this case.

He explained in lamen's that it does appear to be caused by something within the feed. Proving this hinges on what the feed test results by the ODA conclude. I told him that I found .9 lbs of corn in a 50 lb bag of feed and he said that that would be enough of a feed change that it could be a cause.

I am not sure that this would be enough to have Payback reimburse me for my rabbits if the results of the feed come back within the guaranteed levels or not. The person that took samples from ODA said that the Payback rep. pretty much sunk any case they had when he admitted to him that there was a lot of corn and black chunks of stuff in the feed.

Just wanted to update.

ETA: The deaths have stopped!!! Six days and I haven't lost any. The only ones that I lost after the feed change were ill before the change (or at least acting off). I didn't cull all of the ones that seemed to be affected, since some of them recovered on their own with electrolytes, hay and acv in the water. Total death count: 216.

Progress! Sounds as though you are on the right track! And the best news is that no more are dying!

I dunno--sounds pretty conclusive to me, especially with that admission by the Payback rep. Here's hoping that the ODA tests give you enough info/ammo to get Payback to reimburse you completely.

OUCH
sorry but If I have Rabbits I suspect of stomach/GI problems I think are terminal, I think I will try to cull them, a perforated intestine, yuck, a very bad way to die.

I have to say, if I am already losing rabbits, and some seem to do okay, I am going yo try to save the rest. It is a horrible way to die, but if there is a chance of recouperating...

Wow! I am glad you are getting some answers now, and I hope you can get reimbursed!

Jack":224dqcfk said:

OUCH
sorry but If I have Rabbits I suspect of stomach/GI problems I think are terminal, I think I will try to cull them, a perforated intestine, yuck, a very bad way to die.

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Any that I knew were terminal and showing signs of pain were dispatched. A lot of my problem was that they didn't want to eat the feed. Hard to tell when they're off feed when it is 8-10 in a growout cage. Most of what got sick without litters on them didn't get that bad and bounced back rather quickly. I pulled litters at the first sign of illness and some responded...others culled.

Julia would have been culled sooner, but she needed to be live when she arrived for necropsy. She had only gotten sick 2 days before that and her litter pulled. She was probably the worst case in my barn, therefore the best one to take.

Please don't assume that I would let my animals suffer needlessly.

wow ... so so sad for you and the rabbits who died (216 - unreal)
but so glad you are getting the proof you need to get some coverage for it - we hope

Paula, no one who knows you as most of us do would think for one minute you would let your rabbits suffer needlessly. I'm so sorry you and your rabbits have had to go through this. I hope getting some answers to what went wrong will also mean you get compensation for your monetary losses. There is nothing that can make up for the emotional toll, but I hope the support of your friends helps somewhat.

Jack":3laybjuc said:

sorry but If I have Rabbits I suspect of stomach/GI problems I think are terminal, I think I will try to cull them, a perforated intestine, yuck, a very bad way to die.

Click to expand...

Jack, I think you need to understand the whole situation here. This is not just one rabbit or two or three. pfaubush has lost over 200 rabbits in the last few weeks, apparently due to a bad batch of feed (nearly 10% corn in feed that was supposed to be corn-free, chunks of black mold in the feed, etc.). This necropsy was done to help prove that it was the feed that killed the rabbits. This is a $4000+ loss for pfaubush.

Thank you all for your support! Maggie, I have truly found that I have some awesome friends through all of this (offline and on). I spoke with a friend up north last night that breeds, as well. She asked me last night what I needed to replace in my barn. I sort of gave her the short version and she told me that she had 3 nice pedigreed Cali bucks that were too nice to go to the fryer pen, some does out of her champion Cali doe, a pair of white flemish does, and a blue NZ that she could give me. When I asked her how much she wanted, she told me nothing. She said that this ordeal has turned her stomach and that she wanted to see me rebuild.

Chris has turned into one of my biggest advocates. I told him I thought I may be put out of business and he told me that I started with less than what I have now and that I needed to plug along. This is out of a man that doesn't necessarily care about the rabbits.

I figured out at some point in this ordeal that going out of business would be a huge dis-service to my family. They have all put time into this project, dealt with times when mom had to deal with a rabbit issue, waited on mom to load up rabbits before we go somewhere so that she could sell them, waited on me at strange hours because I was buying a rabbit, bringing chilled kits back to life, and doing without something they wanted a few times because mom had to buy feed to replace the bad stuff, then buy more of something different because that was bad too, or because mom underestimated the feed she would need that month. For all of them to go through this 'journey' with me and then see all the rabbits gone with nothing to show would make me even more selfish than to keep on keepin' on.

I wish I lived closer to you. I have four 9.5mo Cals (two does and two bucks) that I would be glad
to contribute to the effort. They're all littermates, but they're out of good lines.

How wonderful that you have your family's support, as well!

pfaubush":13g3ig2i said:

I figured out at some point in this ordeal that going out of business would be a huge dis-service to my family. They have all put time into this project, dealt with times when mom had to deal with a rabbit issue, waited on mom to load up rabbits before we go somewhere so that she could sell them, waited on me at strange hours because I was buying a rabbit, bringing chilled kits back to life, and doing without something they wanted a few times because mom had to buy feed to replace the bad stuff, then buy more of something different because that was bad too, or because mom underestimated the feed she would need that month. For all of them to go through this 'journey' with me and then see all the rabbits gone with nothing to show would make me even more selfish than to keep on keepin' on.

Click to expand...

No matter how well one takes care of their animals, something like this can come along and decimate one's efforts. You gave them a good and healthy environment, cared for them well, and had to trust the feed companies you deal with. In this case that trust was in vain, and there was no way for you to know. It is a shame many of us don't live closer to you, I could give you 3 proven does an as many 8-10 week old rabbits as you wanted. I am sure there are many others on this forum that would also be willing to help if they had rabbits to spare. I am glad you are sticking with it.<br /><br />__________ Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:20 pm __________<br /><br />

if I could.... I have two meat mutts that would work for you. Just babies yet, but out of a good doe and solid buck. but hmm...how to get them to oregon....

Yes, I do understand, and that is what made me write that, I don't like an animal suffering, whether from a botched slaughter or from illness, and I feel for her, I would be devastated and I have no where near 200. I used to work in the medical, so I know why they needed a live specimen, sad, personally at about 50 I would heading to the mill with a load of gas.

I don't see any benefit to continuing to hash this over. Jack, if you had been reading about Paula's situation from the beginning, you would know that the majority of the losses were infant kits whose mothers took sick. Still devastating to lose them, but hardly the result of any failure on Paula's part to take appropriate measures. My dad always used to say that one should put one's brain in gear before putting one's mouth in motion. Good advice for the fingers that type too!

Paula, I am expecting a litter from Maple and Caedar, and would be happy to give you the doe kits from that breeding. Bucks, too, if you wanted them.

It really kills me to see this happen to you, who loves rabbits SO much and tries so hard to make it where you whant to be. You have helped me out tons (even putting up with me for hours on the phone ) And I would feel very honored if I could help you out in that way. It would obviously be a couple months, but towards the end of the month is when they are expecting. I wish I could help out more...

Yeah, Paula, I haven't been on for most of this ordeal, but I will have a litter out of Winston and my NZR doe next batch, fingers crossed. These kits I just got are freezer babies for sure, but the next batch I'll give Winston a go, he's 6 mos now. Did his daddy make it? If you want babies partially related to your stock I'd be happy to bring 'em down at about 8-10 weeks.

Paula, good luck with this. Sounds like it's the fault of feed, but since your friend was feeding the same batch, without problems, you may have a hard time proving it And the necropsy results sound good for your needs, tho. The feed providers like Purina would FOR SURE reimburse you just so it doesn't go to a lawsuit...as you said earlier somewhere...make it go away. I hope it's the same with Payback.

Points up a good reason to feed hay to rabbits. boy. I was talking to a cattle/dairy feed researcher about this, and before I got to the "would feeding hay help?" question, he said "needed to feed hay. the fiber will push through any bad feed or fermenting feed before it causes problems" It also keeps the stomach full, so the critter doesn't have JUST the bad feed in it's gut.

Thanks for posting all this. I've learned quite a bit from you, and from others on your threads about this problem. sorry for all your losses.

Jack":2ht2hb8f said:

Yes, I do understand, and that is what made me write that, I don't like an animal suffering, whether from a botched slaughter or from illness, and I feel for her, I would be devastated and I have no where near 200. I used to work in the medical, so I know why they needed a live specimen, sad, personally at about 50 I would heading to the mill with a load of gas.

Click to expand...

I read this earlier, and have tried to heed Maggie's advice to not rehash this (sorry, Maggie). I can't seem to wrap my mind around how presumptuous, judgemental, and arrogant your attitude is. My adult rabbits that did get sick didn't just get left in the rabbitry to suffer. Many of them would be found dead with no symptoms. Most had just kindled and the stress of nursing exaserbated the problem. Those litters were pulled and humanely euthanized. The does were given 24 hours to show signs of improvement and if they didn't, they were euthanized as well. If the does were at a point that they appeared to be in pain were dispatched without the chance to rebound. As I said before, some of the fryers weren't eating. How would you expect this to be handled? Put them all in separate cages so that I knew who was off their feed? When I did notice a problem with the fryers, they were put down. Much of the problem was the speed that this hit. It didn't start on the 7th with all of my rabbits sick, then dying around the 23rd when I had the necropsy.

Sick, dead, bury. Sick, dead, bury. Scrub nestboxes, burn and wash cages, clean the barn walls and ceiling and then move the entire thing so that they are on clean ground. Sick, dead, bury. Calls to vets, medicate entire herd with Baycox (that took a while to get here). Calls to OSU, meetings with the feed rep, calls to his boss, calls to ODA, calls to and from other breeders with ideas of how to get the issue under control. Sick, dead, bury.

Payback tested the feed and it came back fine. I didn't switch feed because changing a feed, when there was no proof that I was dealing with a feed problem, was a huge worry, since they already had gut problems. Changing feeds can cause even greater gut issues.

I don't normally feel any need to defend myself, but your comment of going to the mill with a can of gasoline was the rediculous comment that threw me over the edge. You can make comments like that until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that no reasonable person would do such a thing. Where would it get them? Vengence? I don't want vengence. I want restitution for my losses. You have no right to sit in judgement of me unless you know. You weren't here dealing with it nor have you been in my shoes. You're certainly entitled to your state opinion, but do it after you have all your facts.

Folks...settle down. Feelings are running high. Apparently both Jack's comments and Paula's can be read a couple of different ways...as usually happens with texts.

Please remember to not post if you're going to attack someone. Most times it's just something misunderstood, misread, or just not worth it. If you'd like to take it to PMs, or send a PM to one of the moderators about it, please do so. We're here to help, but also to keep peace.