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Explain this one...(okay two)

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
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Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#1  Unread postby ladysown » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:31 am


Black magpie bred to chocolate magpie gave me a BLUE magpie. I don't get it. Should have been black or chocolate...NOT blue! (though I must admit...it is a very lovely blue).

Chocolate magpie bred to chocolate magpie gave me three.. look to be WHITE kits! Just born this morning. Disappointed by litter size....

I don't get it... maybe their colour isn't in yet...but normally I see SOME colour on newborn harlequin kits...these guys...they look white. Anyone else raising harlequins ever get this??
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#2  Unread postby Jasharia » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:27 am


I no nothing about harlequens abut with the english lops I bred a broken blue with a broken blue tort and got a broken smoke pearl point (we think) not sure where he poped out of. I am breeding back mom to her REW son to see if we get more of that color.

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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#3  Unread postby ottersatin » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:32 am


Ladysown,
I am not familiar with Harlequin's or Magpies
but I do know that genetics can show up from up to 45 generations back.
This could be what has happened. Perhaps the Chocolate and the Black
had some Blues in their backgrounds too many years back to show up on the pedigree.
I have bred Chocolate Otter to Chocolate and gotten Black Otter offspring.
I was confused at first but when I looked into the Parents pedigrees I saw that there were
Black Otters on both sides of the parent rabbits.
So, never say never!
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#4  Unread postby Half Caper Farm » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:37 am


I've had the odd Harlequin kit with almost no colour, mostly white - and if they're lilac without much colour, they do look almost white at birth. I wait a few days for some hair to grow in and see what I'm getting. My latest litters, I have a few black Magpies that have very little white on them. :P

Have you looked at the pedigrees to see what colours are in the background? That's what I like about Harlequins - they're like Bits and Bites, you never know what you're going to get! :lol:

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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Devon's Mom Lauren » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:27 pm


Black and chocolate magpie both carry dilute. Not sure how you got white or rew with the magpies though lol. Unless the chin modifier is on the full C and not the small "c"?? or they are self orange with the chin gene, then they would be frostys :shock: :shock: :shock: :x :x

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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#6  Unread postby moonkitten » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:03 pm


So now you know the buck and doe are both Dd - dilute carriers. Not at all uncommon in Ontario where stock is rare and rabbitries are small. To produce all 4 colours in a small rabbitry, you need to cross your non-dilutes to a dilute. I think ALL of my stock are dilute or dilute carriers, bred that way deliberately so that I can sell a pair to a new breeder and they have the possiblity of producing all 4 colours down the road.

As far as the rew... my first trio were all 'c' carriers and so were both bucks I imported from the US. I would love to get rid of that gene, but it would take more breeding stock and test breedings and years than I care to put in :) I'm surprised you haven't had albino harlequins before now. The 'c' gene is also pretty widespread in Ontario stock. On a positive note, they do tend to grow faster and meatier than the non-albino harlequins.
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#7  Unread postby ladysown » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:24 pm


On a positive note, they do tend to grow faster and meatier than the non-albino harlequins.


well...that will make a new dog food person VERY happy. :) Though I'm still hoping for colour... just a bit of colour would nice... I"m really not into white that much...
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#8  Unread postby HendricksHearth » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:26 pm


Neato- I am still learning about Harlies, but interesting litter reports. I was thinking of crossing NZR to my Japanese stock to improve type and size, but I haven't been able to find any reds. I guess someone up in Canada had the same idea except crossed NZW to Harlies and the c is popping up still.

Best of luck,

Lauren

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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#9  Unread postby Devon's Mom Lauren » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:27 pm


They must carry self as well because we had an entire litter of 8 or so born to a chocolate magpie that were all solid chocolate. They then got the silvering gene from the dad but not as intense as he is..

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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#10  Unread postby Half Caper Farm » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:21 pm


So, are they showing any colour yet? 8-)

Harlequins can be very frustrating as well as interesting. Had a nice showable blue Jap kit - it died. All the non-showable ones are blooming. :evil: Took a close look at a couple of new litters. Ah ha! There's another possible blue Jap. With three white toes on the front foot. :( There is one black magpie that might be showable - at least I don't have to worry about white toes on the magpies!

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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#11  Unread postby ladysown » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:45 pm


I have two that are showing VERY faint half faces.... AND she ended up having four kits total. one was born today...very dead and rather icky looking... somehow the small litter size seems okay now.

Time will tell... Hubby dear keeps telling me to stop being so impatient....I'll know more in another couple of days I'm sure. She pulled a marvellous amount of fur! No worries about these kits getting a chill on these cold nights we've been having. My mini rex girl needed me to pull fur from my stash to keep her five warm. So nice to see these first time moms doing a decent job caring for their kits. :)
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#12  Unread postby moonkitten » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:22 am


Devon's Mom Lauren wrote:They must carry self as well because we had an entire litter of 8 or so born to a chocolate magpie that were all solid chocolate. They then got the silvering gene from the dad but not as intense as he is..


The magpie (aaB_cchd_D_ejej - black magpie) is supposed to be self, but due to the presence of the chin gene (which supresses yellow creating white where the yellow would be) the phenotype is the same for self, agouti and otter in the magpie. Since many of our magpies are frequently crossed with japanese (A_B_C_D_ejej - black japanese) I would expect some of the magpies to be agouti/chin and some to be self/chin. I crossed a blue magpie to a black NZ in the spring and got a litter of six black otters and 2 self blacks. That magpie doe was obviously (ataB_cchd_ddejej) but the orange areas that are produced by the otter gene (at) were suppressed by the chin gene (cchd) so I never knew. :shock:

Harlequins really are interesting in the nest box, and absolutely fascinating when you cross them. It's no wonder so many people have mixed other breeds in (creating frustration for the show breeder who is trying to match the standard). :wall:
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#13  Unread postby ladysown » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:22 am


so I'm thinking that I might have a solid blue (or at least mostly) and two that are showing faint colour. Time will tell what we have. They are BIG! but then again, momma is big too and only raising three kits. :)
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#14  Unread postby moonkitten » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:56 pm


ladysown wrote:so I'm thinking that I might have a solid blue (or at least mostly) and two that are showing faint colour. Time will tell what we have. They are BIG! but then again, momma is big too and only raising three kits. :)


Is this the three from the chocolate to chocolate breeding? Because a chocolate magpie is 'bb' so choc x choc would only produce 'bb' offspring. You could have Lilac (bbdd) quite possibly, but not blue(B_dd).
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Re: Explain this one...(okay two)

Post Number:#15  Unread postby ladysown » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:12 pm


yes, chocolate to chocolate... okay...so only lilac... Okay..now I'm very curious...it's looks wrong to be chocolate, but in my experience lilac are really light coming in and this kit has this bruised look all over it..... hmm... maybe I just have something funky going on....the mystery continues...
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