"Coney Garth" System?

I just came across this today, and since the keywords yielded no results in the search engine so I thought I'd share here. What do you all think about this model? "100% grass-fed" on open pasture does have a nice ring to it...
http://www.northcentralsare.org/Newsroo ... on-Pasture
http://mysare.sare.org/MySare/ProjectRe ... =FNC10-824

At a glance, benefits seem to be zero feeding costs, very "natural" environment. Disadvantages seem to be a slightly high kit mortality rate (?), at least in the original experiments, and that the system requires a generous amount of management, like any intensive grazing.

Not to sure about Hawaii but parisites like fleas, mites and worms are always waiting for your rabbits on open pasture. :zombiebun:

I found that info interesting. But for now I'm really quite happy with my homemade wood-and-wire hutches and the cut-and-carry fodder approach. The one drag about it is the time required to comb the property cutting weeds and greens, but I'm working on planting some more conveniently located banks of fodder plants so that's only going to get easier.

I got a little stirred up recently in part by a well-intentioned good friend who was trying to pressure me recently to put my rabbits out in some sort of set up where they would have more space to run around and where she thought they would have a more natural, humane life on the ground rather than "up in the air" on wood and wire. (disclaimer: she is a vegetarian who has kept pet rabbits for years in fenced "pastures"). We basically agreed to disagree on the issue amicably if awkwardly, but it did get me thinking a bit and doing some more research again.

I think, notionally, that giving animals more room and freedom to roam and frolick always sounds like a nice idea but was not (after doing lots of research and thinking) ready to take that on without learning more about possible pitfalls. I figured there must be good reasons why so many reasonable people keep their rabbits in hutches. After doing even MORE research and thinking I still lean the same way. If even a place like Polyface Farms (http://www.polyfacefarms.com/2011/07/25 ... d-rabbits/) doesn't keep their rabbits on pasture much because of "disease pressure" and other management concerns (can't find the link for that quote now) I'm not going to blunder into something without more reassuring and encouraging models to follow.

I know that worms are a big issue with any domestic animals in Hawaii. That could be a concern with putting the rabbits on ground.

I had an epiphany the other day after looking at some pictures of "rabbit tractor" set ups online: I noticed how a lot of them are built with wire or slatted wooden floors so the rabbits can't dig out. So what, I ask myself, is the difference between that and a hutch? The rabbits have a little more room to run around perhaps (or not, depending on the size and number of rabbits per hutch or tractor) but they are still living on wire, eating grass--just like my rabbits. The only "difference" is that my cages are above ground level and those cages ("tractors") are at ground level. From the rabbits' point of view it's basically the same darn thing, yet some people will look subjectively at one (hutches) and call it inhumane and equivalent to factory farming (like my friend), and then look at the other (tractors) and call it humane, "natural," etc. My concern is for my rabbits' optimal well-being, and my own farm's needs, not other people's perceptions, so until I know that putting rabbits out on "pasture" isn't going to create more problems than it "solves" (for me or the rabbits), my little bunbuns are stayin' in their nice, roomy, cozy, lovingly-built hutches! :bunnyhop:

I am finding it difficult to determine what she actually did, the abstracts are written almost as a "sequel" to something. And with the title of "coney garth", it gets even more confusing, as those were medieval artificial warrens - NOT intended for rotated grazing, nor was there much of an escape problem, as they were built over rocky ground and surrounded by essentially a moat (sometimes even located on actual small islands, which the warrener reached by skiff when harvesting the rabbits). http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/rabb_warr.htm No electric fencing required, but you do need to either own the property or have extensive landscaping rights, to construct the coneygarth properly. I'd think you could eliminate most parasite worries by using prepared (weed and bug/grub free) soil on top of the rock underpinnings. It was of course VERY "cost effective" in the Middle Ages, as they probably worried less about certain things we go "ick" over today, plus most used naturally rocky areas to create the coneygarths. Bugs and grubs were likely removed by chickens or small urchins. Much as my dad set me to weed-pulling whenever I was in trouble as a kid!

That's a fascinating article! Thanks, Dragon.

It's an interesting concept, but the articles on the modern "warrens" do not give much specific information. I find it frustrating that they do not address issues such as escapes, predator problems, parasite problems etc.

DragonLadyLeanne... That is a wonderful article on the Dartmoor warrens! My mom and I took a tour through Southern England including Dartmoor back in 1987. I remember some of the places mentioned, including Widecombe-in-the-Moor. Such a beautiful and picturesque spot! Wish I had known about the ancient warrens then.

Mine are in open pasture and I haven't had worm or flea/tick issues. Only the ear mites, but those came from outside rabbits.
Rabbits come back to where their scent is unless something hounds them off.

I'm not saying it can't be done, CnB... Just that the article does not give enough information on potential problems and how to address them. It is all very vague (and unsatisfactory to me).

I dug around in the links on the SARE project page a bit. I agree that it's hard to piece together exactly what the plan looks like from those summaries, kind of like working backwards to make sense of a crime scene. But most of the details are there somewhere (in the project report pages, not the article, which was indeed frustratingly vague). Eg, she describes in detail how she constructed a physical barrier fence to prevent escapes using hog fencing panels, chicken wire, and homemade sand bags to make the bottom edge rabbit proof--escapes stopped completely after she switched over from electric fencing to that system.

I don't remember any discussion about parasites/worms--perhaps this wasn't an issue during her project, or maybe i missed it.

You know, she does say in her final report, "I receive numerous emails investigating my system. I always respond and have taken to consulting over the phone or skype. I don’t know how long I’ll be able to do that, but for now the interested parties are few enough that I can take time to speak to them personally." Her email and phone number are on the project website; anyone who's seriously interested in more details or has questions could certainly try to contact her...

i also find it frustrating that they just say over and over that she has rabbits on pasture and uses a yurt building.... there arent any specifics at all about what she actually does.... until i found this:
http://mysare.sare.org/MySare/ProjectRe ... y=2012&t=1

personally though i find several things i do not like about it.

"to have 40 breeding does that consistently raise 5 kits to weaning age three times per year for a total of 15 kits per doe per year" .... for any rabbit raiser this seems very unsatisfactory production. though i suppose if you choose pasture raised comes first then i suppose this would be great. on one hand you can have as many rabbits as your pasture area will allow (because no feed costs) but to me i'm imagining alot of work in this type set up. which is another downside.

"ability to stay within the fence (as in, I don’t have to capture the doe outside the fence- barring outside disturbances in which case it is excusable to test the boundaries. These cases include but are not limited to predation, human error, and extreme weather events). " .... i'm not imagining this workin too well for most people. rabbits are rabbits, and rabbits dig.

"two percent escape loss for fryers and one percent escape loss for does" .... uh huh... and that is on top of only getting litters of 5 and only 3 times per year? :shock: doesnt sound like anything i'm going to be trying.

"*It must be noted that the physical barrier fence is effective as long as the rabbits are given sufficient space to meet their nutritional requirements, territorial wants, and psychological needs. In short, the fence needs to be moved every day or the rabbits will get hungry, cramped or bored and dig out. "... i'm not thinking most people would have enough space to graze them in order to do this. and with different things like if its too hot and dry or too wet and grass isnt growing then everything comes to a halt because there isnt any food or you need alot more space for that food.

"Kit mortality rate NOT SOLVED: Although I now breed does on a rolling basis and they are with the buck for one week at a time and are therefore able to breed at their consent, kit mortality is still a problem. Four hundred saleable fryers were not produced; however, 304 were born in the 2012 season from 20 different does (4 does were complete duds) but only 75 kits lived past 5 weeks. I do not have 40 breeding does of reliable productivity; instead I have selected 8 to begin the 2013 grazing season. " ..... if i had to pick one reason to not use this method, this would be it.


i think there is some idea somewhere that someone will come up with that will be great to pasture rabbits.... i just dont think its been thought of yet. at least not one that has high enough production to make it worth trying for most people.



as for the original warrens and pillowmounds, if i were to setup a full on colony and had the time and money to do so i would put down cement, cover with soil enough to grow grass, and make several mounds like they show in that link. and enclose the whole thing with sturdy fence and fence in a roof.

I agree, that kit mortality rate definitely indicates that something is seriously wrong with her setup! Does she indicate how much of the kit mortality is due to predators? (I just don't have time to read it just now)

Hi,

Old post, I know.
I was also researching different methods of pasture raising rabbits, and also found the Coney Garth system. There is a video about it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz8o2uh9Lkw the interesting part starts at about 6 minutes, the rest is not that interesting.

Anyone tried a similar system?
And anyone know why she does limit the mating to 3 litters a year/doe?

JMHO, -- feed value of pasture is not adequate for intensive breeding of does. Many areas of the US have very poor forage quality , quality that is not good enough to raise the young....
When I was young I tried a similar situation [without having the breed stock in the pasture also] -The young grew quite well in western Montana, but- they still grew half as fast as those fed hay, cornstalks, root crops, weeds, and sometimes some grain . The rabbits raised this way were often sexually mature by the time they reached 5 lb butcher weight, the bucks were often tough and stringy, and some of the does were pregnant.
---I stopped raising rabbits this way, because growth rate,meat quality, and management time [including catching the rabbits] were just too much compared to other systems, and I could only breed in the months when pasture was going to be available.. ... I settled on a system of cages with big hay mangers, I fed garden weeds, hay, or cornstalks [for long stem fiber] kale, and root crops.[ J. artichoke, sugar beet, carrot. and misc. garden crops] The rabbits did not have nearly the disease problems, management was easy, meat quality was acceptable. Manure was concentrated under the pens,and easily relocated to the garden, and row-crop areas. again... JMHO

Hi,
maybe the word "pasture" is not adapted. Have you watched the video from minute 6 to 8? Instead of grasses there are a lot of forbs, probably higher in protein than a grass pasture.

The reasons to have a system like this, if it works in the area, is to reduce the workload and the costs, as well as not feeding grains.

Bre":htchttxl said:

Hi,
maybe the word "pasture" is not adapted. Have you watched the video from minute 6 to 8? Instead of grasses there are a lot of forbs, probably higher in protein than a grass pasture.

The reasons to have a system like this, if it works in the area, is to reduce the workload and the costs, as well as not feeding grains.

Click to expand...

yes, I watched the video ...best of luck...
The problem is not just protein [as some people think] - the issue is also energy [fats, sugars, and carbs] , and a nutritionally complete diet, the rabbit will only grow as fast as the weakest link in the nutrition profile allows. -depending on where you live-- that varies considerably.[northern states have better pasture than southern states - southern states can grow a lot more of their forage..

I was surprised when I got a notification, as I'd entirely forgot about this thread and actually haven't kept rabbits now for over a year.

But in fact, part of why we quit the project was because of related issues. After experiencing some disheartening health and welfare problems traced to having our herd in too small confinement, we became convinced that outdoor raising was the only ethically acceptible way to go. The trouble was, though undeniably happier outdoors, our stock often proved prone to some kind of liver parasite when grazing, which left us in a bit of a bind. So long story short we now have a pastured dual pirpose flock of Dominique chickens "instead"--which grow at a comparable rate, eat little commercial feed (compared to other breeds) because they graze and forage and eat farm surpluses a lot and have thrifty genetics generally, don't chew or dig out of their conveniently cheap, flimsy portable net fencing, and also give us top notch eggs yearound to boot. And in my entirely subjective opinion, taste better than rabbit.

Anyhow, though, a few of my thoughts on this:

I've seen the vid and as mentioned before, read thru some of her reports and notes. I totally admire this woman's intelligence and commitment to pioneering a more humane and sustainable system than the current "standard practice", if you will, of close confinement on wire flooring, and high input feeding. I would just advise leariness in making simplistic assumptions about something like this across the board "reducing workload and costs." mob grazing management (which it seems this essentially is) is usually actually quite labor intensive (to wit, she is moving her fencing and all those cart-nesting-houses every 30-36 hours, apparently, rain or shine)--DIFFERENT labor, of course, and plenty of people wouldn't trade it for anything, but labor/time nontheless. Also, don't forget she had to apply for (multiple, I think?) grants to pay for everything (I guess all that hardware shown would cost a few thousand dollars just to build off her now already developed design). And then there is the issue of breeding stock, and trying to develop a strain that is capable of thriving in that sort of environment, which modern meat rabbits are totally not adapted for (hence, I would imagine, her horrific rates of kit mortality, and perhaps the need to "artificially" limit the litters per year to a more "natural," or perhaps I should say, "more wild-type", rate of reproduction.

Big kudos though to her for taking cuniculture in a progressive direction, and for allowing others to learn from her efforts. This sort of pioneering on that kind of scale is not for the faint of heart, shall we say...

Don't take this the wrong way, but...

for now though, we on our farm will be sticking to raising OTHER animal species ALREADY WELL ADAPTED to the pastured life--that, for us, is proving the more pragmatic and direct route to the broader goal of humane and efficient food production... :gnight:

ramblingrabbit":2auqxf7q said:

I was surprised when I got a notification, as I'd entirely forgot about this thread and actually haven't kept rabbits now for over a year.

But in fact, part of why we quit the project was because of related issues. After experiencing some disheartening health and welfare problems traced to having our herd in too small confinement, we became convinced that outdoor raising was the only ethically acceptible way to go. The trouble was, though undeniably happier outdoors, our stock often proved prone to some kind of liver parasite when grazing, which left us in a bit of a bind. So long story short we now have a pastured dual pirpose flock of Dominique chickens "instead"--which grow at a comparable rate, eat little commercial feed (compared to other breeds) because they graze and forage and eat farm surpluses a lot and have thrifty genetics generally, don't chew or dig out of their conveniently cheap, flimsy portable net fencing, and also give us top notch eggs yearound to boot. And in my entirely subjective opinion, taste better than rabbit.

Anyhow, though, a few of my thoughts on this:

I've seen the vid and as mentioned before, read thru some of her reports and notes. I totally admire this woman's intelligence and commitment to pioneering a more humane and sustainable system than the current "standard practice", if you will, of close confinement on wire flooring, and high input feeding. I would just advise leeriness in making simplistic assumptions about something like this across the board "reducing workload and costs." mob grazing management (which it seems this essentially is) is usually actually quite labor intensive (to wit, she is moving her fencing and all those cart-nesting-houses every 30-36 hours, apparently, rain or shine)--DIFFERENT labor, of course, and plenty of people wouldn't trade it for anything, but labor/time nonetheless. Also, don't forget she had to apply for (multiple, I think?) grants to pay for everything (I guess all that hardware shown would cost a few thousand dollars just to build off her now already developed design). And then there is the issue of breeding stock, and trying to develop a strain that is capable of thriving in that sort of environment, which modern meat rabbits are totally not adapted for (hence, I would imagine, her horrific rates of kit mortality, and perhaps the need to "artificially" limit the litters per year to a more "natural," or perhaps I should say, "more wild-type", rate of reproduction.

Big kudos though to her for taking cuniculture in a progressive direction, and for allowing others to learn from her efforts. This sort of pioneering on that kind of scale is not for the faint of heart, shall we say...

Don't take this the wrong way, but...

for now though, we on our farm will be sticking to raising OTHER animal species ALREADY WELL ADAPTED to the pastured life--that, for us, is proving the more pragmatic and direct route to the broader goal of humane and efficient food production... :gnight:

Click to expand...

That about sums up my issues with this kind of program. I however, just went back to a "modified" version of what I was doing before I tried the "pasture experiment". [remodeled my existing doe cages, and then built more grow-out cages,with a big manger. ] This was all done before rabbit pellets were commonly available. So I was used to feeding hay and corn stalks for long stem fiber and some nutrition, and- kale, weeds, and root crops for energy. I provided sheep minerals ad-lib .[grain was only fed if I could get it extremely cheap] ..It was not unusual for rabbits to take 10 to 11 weeks to reach 5 lbs [my butcher target]

Rabbits raised on the ground are likely to have problems with parasites, but a colony in a shed or horse stalls can work, bringing the forage to the rabbits. I liked my little colony and if I could still manage the gathering, I'd have them still.

I agree with Michael that some source of carbohydrate is needed to create a balance in a hay-based diet. This link to a British study done in 1947 (rationing was still in place from wartime, so no grain to give rabbits then) has information that will help develop a balanced ration for rabbits not fed pellets.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 6A714BFA17

That Cambridge study is quite interesting, thanks:
Especially point 7 is interesting

7. It took 30 man-hours labour to collect weeds to provide available energy (2400 Cal.) for one man for I day by converting weeds alone into rabbit meat. The corresponding figure for the group fed weeds and potatoes was 9 hr. '36min. The provision of I day's supply of animal protein (32.5 8.) took 2 hr. by feeding weeds alone and I hr. 19 min. by feeding weeds and potatoes

Click to expand...

I wonder if the mobile pen system is more efficient in converting work into calories, (when you have a disease-resistant and adapted line).

Bre":1hlf4mz2 said:

That Cambridge study is quite interesting, thanks:
Especially point 7 is interesting

7. It took 30 man-hours labour to collect weeds to provide available energy (2400 Cal.) for one man for I day by converting weeds alone into rabbit meat. The corresponding figure for the group fed weeds and potatoes was 9 hr. '36min. The provision of I day's supply of animal protein (32.5 8.) took 2 hr. by feeding weeds alone and I hr. 19 min. by feeding weeds and potatoes

Click to expand...

I wonder if the mobile pen system is more efficient in converting work into calories, (when you have a disease-resistant and adapted line).

Click to expand...

I have seen some systems that were reported to work quite well. Building open, or slatted floor cages/ enclosures , and then moving them from place to place, has been a standard practice ,detailed as far back as 1900 [at least] This was largely forgotten in the "feed commercialization, and factory farm movement/effort" of the 50's ,60's and 70's, but has resurfaced again in the last few years . The secret to keeping the rabbits healthy [parasite reduction] is in moving them on to new ground in a long rotation... and not just back and forth every few days on the same ground. Feeding garlic chives, or some other allium, will drastically reduce cocci infection.

Why my system worked for me... I was raised on a farm,I was the oldest of 9 children- we grew almost all of our own food, we worked on the farm. Weeding of garden and row crops ,was a chore that was necessary . Rabbits provided a way to efficiently convert the weeds [we had to pull anyway], into usable food [meat] for our family and extended family. Rabbits also turned weeds into a fertilizer that was "instantly" available to take back out to garden and field. The weeds had to be hauled out of the field anyway [because seed will sometimes form after the weed is pulled] so- hauling a wheel barrow from the field, and throwing them in the rabbit manger took only about 5 minutes longer, than throwing them over the fence at the edge of the field, so cows could eat some and tromp on some.
We grew a lot of root crops anyway , I planted extra rows for the rabbits and chickens.. in the fall we sorted the root crops after harvest- all of the substandard ones were separated and put into a separate root storage pit for the animals to eat. We kept the biggest, smoothest ones for human consumption..... corn stalks were hard to deal with in the field, so they were either burned in the field, or cut and hauled out of the field before it was tilled ,, I just hauled them to the barn [with the hay] where they stayed dry, and fed them to the rabbits.
anyway ,-- rabbits fit very well into our "sustainable" [very little money] lifestyle ..