cinnabun autopsy--no pics

well there were nine full term kits, her stomach was full and the small intestine immeadiately following the stomach seemed over-full, there were about 3 bunnny berries in first few inches of the large intestine but nothing in the rest of it...I wonder if she just got rid of them in preparation for labor or if there is some kind of blockage? Liver looked normal, no sign of worms, flukes, etc, yet.

I neeed to open the intestine but I needed a break.

The kit closest to the exit was facing butt out, head in...rabbits are usually born head first right? He wasn't even in the canal...there was a lot of blood in one horn of the uterus (possibly because she was laying on that side after she died), and she was clearly bleeding when I first found her, it very much looks like loss of blood is what caused her death, but why would that happen? There was no impact that I know of, she hadn't been jumping up on top of the nest box in the past week even, she was too akward. I am baffled, but reassured that she had no communicable illness that I can see.

sounds like a rupture--it is 'normal' for small animals to be born butt first-- around 50% are born that way. If the cotyledon cord tears away from the uterine wall before the placenta is expelled, there can be excessive bleeding. If she was laboring hard or for an extended period of time, the uterine tissues will weaken.

Ok, so what (other than just congenital weakness in the tissue, which is likely, and impact, which I think I can rule out) could cause rupture? Is there any illness, or anything that I should be watching for? I am sure this is just one of those things, but if there is a chance it can be prevented, I'd really like to know.

A uterus is basically a bag made out of muscle. Unfortuneately, it is not anchored the way most muscles are. Anything that overstretches it, such as large litters, lots of litters, masses of fat within the muscle wall, compromises the integrity. There are also the hormonal cycles that occur during labor- the oxytocin not only helps the cervix open up and increase the muscle contractions, it thins out the muscle walls AND blood supply. You have multiple 'chemical' interactions happening between babies and mom. These interactions and reactions can make or break a delivery. It is actually thought that the inducement for labor is a hormone released by a baby into the bloodstream of the mother that signals distress- the distress is usually the breakdown of the nutritional delivery system(placenta)
As with any animal, you want the doe to be in optimal health- no excessive fat, well exercised, healthy diet. There is an herbal aid peole give their dogs- raspberry leaves-- supposedly, they help with labor and delivery. I have a book on "Nutrional healing" and such packed away somewhere- I'll look it up when I can-but perhaps stock up on some-and starting at about day 15, feed a leaf or two every day. It may help, it won't hurt.

Now, here is something that makes me angry, and even if you had gotten a hold of a vet, you may have been laughed at--

MY daughter's Guinea pig was laboring-- her third litter, and I could see she was in trouble. I called the emergency vet, and they refused to do a c-section!! Reason "Rodents don't have trouble having babies" Sunshine died that night- and when I opened her- one HUGE transversely positioned pup. My kid's heart broke that night, and I could not tell her why a DOCTOR would refuse to help a 'patient'

So, if at all possible, have a rabbit specialist lined up- get to know that specialist- your herd could depend on it!

I am a meat breeder, I can't afford a $500 vet bill. Either they are hardy or not, but I would like to give them the best shake. She did not seem to have excess abdominal fat, she was large and in good condition. I may have re-bred her too soon, or it could be it would have happened anyway. She was eating drinking and pooping yeasterday.

I went back and checked for intestinal blockage, and parasites, everything was good there too. The kits were pink and perfect, they could have been reds, I wont know because they are little and wet. Sigh. Such a dissappointment. I liked her. I was even a little attached. it stinks. She was so pretty.

Very few of us can afford vet bills for meat rabbits. It's really sad you lost her, Eco2pia, but these things happen sometimes despite our best efforts. It stinks, for sure!

Thanks Maggie. Her breeder still has her mother, but lost her buck to heat stroke last summer, so I will get to cross my buck to her mother and we will both have pedigreed babies...I keep telling myself that will be even better...but I am still pretty bummed. She was a beauty.

I'm so sorry....

So sorry you lost her, Eco2pia.

So sorry for your loss, Eco2pia.<br /><br />__________ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:30 pm __________<br /><br />

Frosted Rabbits":20vt98h5 said:

MY daughter's Guinea pig was laboring-- her third litter, and I could see she was in trouble. I called the emergency vet, and they refused to do a c-section!! Reason "Rodents don't have trouble having babies" Sunshine died that night- and when I opened her- one HUGE transversely positioned pup. My kid's heart broke that night, and I could not tell her why a DOCTOR would refuse to help a 'patient'

So, if at all possible, have a rabbit specialist lined up- get to know that specialist- your herd could depend on it!

Click to expand...

This may be a dumb question but, would you ever just "take" the babies...knowing you were probably going to lose the mom anyway, or if you actually witnessed her pass and knew the kits were still alive? or would it be pointless to do that unless you had another doe to foster them to? just curious...

based on my current level of busy, I would only take the kits if I had a doe to foster to. Unfortunately that was my one breedable doe.

wth Guinea pigs, 'taking' the baby could be an option, even without a foster mother, as they are born running and start nibbling 'real' food right away (lactation is about 3days)i couldn't do that with my daughters pet though-- as it was, I didn't even have the proper tools on hand.
AS far as my rabbits- If I saw the mother pass, or knew there was no doubt that she would, and Iknew she was full term, I-would probably try the emergency C section, knowing the babies would have a far slimmer chance than if something happened to the doe just after they were kindled. The problem with C-sections, for the kits, would be that the babies actually need to feel the contractions to help stimulate their little bodies. And it takes a team to get it done quickly and safely.
as far as vets being expensive, even if it isn't for a meat herd, but a childs treasured pet, a good working relationship with a vet can get you access to information and sometimes, the good drugs- like banamine.

I'm so sorry you lost them. Animals just tear your heart out sometimes. However, there are so many things that can go wrong with birthing in any species. Particularly, it seems, with rabbits. Since they tend to have so many at one time, and are by nature trying to keep the pregnancy secret...one little tear, one small blockage, and the whole thing can go pear-shaped. And the birthing happens so QUICKLY that there's no time to do anything for them.

Learn from it. Go forward. It's about all you can do.

Frosted Rabbits":r6srw68h said:

as far as vets being expensive, even if it isn't for a meat herd, but a childs treasured pet, a good working relationship with a vet can get you access to information and sometimes, the good drugs- like banamine.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely true. I used to have just such a wonderful vet, he was my neighbor. However he is states away. Here locally, I have never found a similar vet, I think my current vet invents fees and procedures. there are vets and then there are vets. I avoid the ones I have available.

eco2pia":2bns2q2a said:

This is absolutely true. I used to have just such a wonderful vet, he was my neighbor. However he is states away. Here locally, I have never found a similar vet, I think my current vet invents fees and procedures. there are vets and then there are vets. I avoid the ones I have available.

Click to expand...

I totally understand. Some people keep asking why don't I just switch vets-- it is because of the relationship!! I won't use a vet that won't listen to me. I don't want a vet that will not examine the animal in front of me.I will be using a vet for the first time pretty soon- but Ihavemet her, held a friends horses as the vet had her arm up the horses rear or ran an NG tube down it's throat. I've seen her 'place'- she's not an easy vet to see in her office- she keeps office hours only 3 days every two weeks- the rest of the time, she is on farm calls!!!But, atleast ihave something of a good relationship started. And if I ever get another vehicle, i can take COnnor back to the first vet- I;ll have a backup vet that way!!! what worries me, though, isthe nearest rabbt specialist is in Mentor- and without my own vehicle, I am stuck- sometimes, you need a specialist to help sort out a herd problem. Or to provide some 'big guns' if needed. for example, Itold someone who has AmChins NOT to Cull the snotty doe-- iknow the protocol to breed out the issue- so she is treating it per my instructions. when I get the doe, I will need to get some bigger antibiotic guns to make sure any kits she has are 'clean' when they are born. That way, I take a carrier doe, and produce non carrier kits. the clean kits can then be used to produce animals with good immune systems, and theywon't be infecting eachother andany new animals introduced tothe herd. Time for something-- i am writing in a manic manner....

Im sorry you lost her.I have only ever lost one doe from having babies.she was a doe we had litters out of before.no reason too suspect anything was wrong.we went too a softball game and when we came home she was dead.