Buck with does?

I'm thinking about bucks and does. I read a review on a book and.. I got soft hearted. It's a wonder I can keep meat rabbits at all.. anyhow..

According to the person who has read the book (I'm trying to get my hands on it myself) it's research that shows how rabbits build families and bonds for life. Like penguins. (well.. like rabbits, but still). When they live in coloies they have families, the alpha buck has lots of wives and mistresses while the lower ranked bucks get one or none. If a buck is removed, another will take his place.. but the buck will try to get back. They moved a buck to another enclosure and he spent the rest of his life trying to get back to his old home and wives, even though there were other does in the new one. He ran along side the fence looking to get back.

The does chose a hole and were reluctant to chose other nesting spots even though the hole regularily got flooded or such.. Maybe that's why some does don't like to use man made nestboxes, only put inside the cage when they're expecting kits? .. that was beside the point..

But.. I never felt good about keeping my bucks all alone. While I can't keep Kori with the sisters, since I need to know who has whih kits due to the preservation plan and pedigrees, I'm thinking that he could live with Sotöra or Spira. Those are just going to make meat bunnies or an occational pet, I don't have to be absolutely sure what kit belongs to which (and spira is a broken and possibly a genetic charlie, while Sotöra is solid, so I should be able to have a decent guess in most cases).

I've read the does will absorb the kits if they're not fit for them, and give themselves breaks. Right? You with bucks and does together: How manny litters does your average doe have? Per year.

If I want Rams to cover one of Koris does.. will Kori be mean to the kits or start bullying the doe? (of course taking the doe to Rams and not getting Rams into Koris pen) Will it be difficult to have the doe accept Rams? I'm also thinking of the time aspect.. Kori wil probably cover any willing doe way faster than I can get them to Rams, so what can I do to make sure the right buck is the father? Should I lock the doe up in the colony a few weeks beforehand? Remove Kori knowing he'll get upset? Perhaps could move him to the neighbour colony with the sisters, but then we have the issue with the kits.. The sisters seem to like Kori a lot though, he has lived with them before.

I'm also thinking of Rams - or whatever buck I get to replace him.. He has a 3.4 x 8.4ft cage. Could/should I keep a single doe with him? Would she be happy or would he annoy her to bits? A fixed doe, if I find any? .. a fixed buck?

The sisters will have to live alone with each other, but I don't think they mind concidering they have each others company.

It is not true that does will self regulate pregnancy. They will keep getting pregnant until they nearly die of starvation, does with a VERY poor body scale will still have kits, just not litters of 12, and those kits will be in just as poor a condition as the dam and may die from malnourishment.

I keep one of my bucks in with my growouts and the other in a cage and switch them every week or so but I don't keep kits longer than 16 weeks and usually less than 12. If you want to keep yours longer you may get pregnant young does and the bucks fighting.

If you take a doe to another buck, when she is put back in the group both the does and bucks will smell her and chase and/or try and breed her for a while, but with the amount of space you have and all the hiding spots I wouldn't worry about it too much.

The buck will not try and kill any kits that aren't his. I have never had a buck show aggression to baby rabbits (under 10 weeks) But he will try and re-breed the doe and won't care that there are newborns around.

I would say that horses are definitely more social than rabbits but you wouldn't dream of keeping a stallion loose with the ladies to do with as be pleases. If you want your buck to have a friend I recommend a neutered female or he may get along with a neutered male depending on both the boys temperaments.

Hm....
If I concidered having two doe pens and move the buck between the colonies.. would that be a functional option? And if so... how long should the buck stay in each? 3 months? Giving the does a 2 month break every now and then? 4 months - 1 month withuot any kit or pregnancy at all? (I'd stil have tis pedigree issue.. but not every litter must be registered.. And then in the sisters pen there's also his own daughter... I guess it wouldn't be nice to keep her with the other buck while Kori was in the sister pen, and try to re-introduce her to the sisters when they were alone..)

If I had 2 bucks and three pens...?

It's this whole bonding thing I'm messing with, if they indeed bond it just feels mean to give them company that will constantly be taken away from them again (i.e. grow outs) and none that will stay with them.
It's also a tad bit convenient to keep one buck in the pens and one in the buck-cage.. but that's the least of the reasons.

I have broken up bonded pairs and never had them greive or pine for their friend. It's not like birds who will commit suicide if they loose their life mate. Often these rabbits will form another bond as they understand the rules of give and take in relationships.

I don't think rabbits 'need' companionship but it can be an added bonus if they have the kind of temper that allows it. The majority of rabbits I have owned have NOT been social and 90% of does would rather kill another rabbit than groom it. Few bucks calm down long enough to get sex off their minds and socialize with a doe and the girls will cuddle with a boy but as soon as he gets frisky they quickly leave the scene.

The only reliable exception in my experience has been mother - daughter and sister bonds, they tend to work out the best.

Keeping the buck in for 3 months will give you litters every 31 days. I would put him in for 25 days at the most and that's it.

Colony breeding doesn't work for me. Tried several times and all the bucks get discouraged and sick of chasing the doe. Unless the doe is a real hussy, none of them ever just lay down, and none of mine are pro breeding. First sign of a buck thinking of breeding and they are gone, I had to take the does out to caged bucks just to breed them. Even if their color was right and they lifted, they would refuse the buck living with them.
So I'm sure in some groups of rabbits, the does 'self regulate', but not in others and I wouldn't bet on them doing so.

I tossed a near adult buck in my exile colony with the 1.5yr buck and his girls. They argued the first day, now they are fine. There's a 3rd and 4th buck in there as well, 3mo and 5mo. I think you could make a buck only colony if you don't want them to be all alone. Just take the buck and doe out to a breeding cage to be bred.

Could this difference in affiliative (relationship) behavior be one of the big differences between wild and domestic rabbits? *wondering*

I'm hearing your replies, listening to them and concidering them. But I'll be disobedient to an extent, I'll try. I'll keep any warnings and experiences shared in the back of my head though.

Dood: 95% of your rabbits won't groom others.. well mine does. There have been occations when a couple just won't get along and I have separated them, but they all have someone ow.. except the breeding bucks. There is too much to point at them actually having a fairly strong social order for me to completely ignore it.. I decided to move a kit back to the does (I decided to keep her) when they had been apart for more than a month. The both does rushed to her and started grooming her like crazy... the same does that wanted to kill Spira at the same age this kit was, when she was introduced. Kori has lived with the sisters before and cuddled, at 6-8 months of age. There were no kits at all.. Now I know things may be different now when he has figured the whole breeding thing out, but I think it's worth a try and I think he'll be happy to have company. It's not that I'm saying you're wrong and I may very well stand corrected at the end of this experiment.. but I need to try, I believe it's worth a try and my turn out to be good.

Of course I'll take action and stop it if the does loose condition, fights are starting or things just won't work out. Just like I removed Fläder or divided the colony when Spira got bullied. Their obvious health is more important and real than my suspicions of a social need... But just maybe I can let both be satisfied?

I'm also concidering to let the new breeding buck (Rams upcoming kit) grow up with a litter mate that I'll have neutered before either of them get to try a doe. I know that is a high-risk project... But I also know of breeding stallions that go very well with geldings since they've grown up with them and won't see them as a threat, while stallions not used to geldings will fight them. (I also know a doe would have a better chance of not fighting, but it's more expencive and risky to fix a doe and I'm afraid the buck would possibly annoy her too much untill she bites back)
Secouno: Do you have experience with bucks of breeding age to live together and then go out to breed and return to the group? They won't start fighting every time?
I have a feeling Kori will be the type to just give up on the does. But I suppose there are ways around that, like using another buck or simply take him away a while before breeding and then putting him back. I think the worst scenario would be if the does got preggers all the time and lost condition.

DogCatMom: I think such behaviour has more to do with how they're raised.. if they're raised in solitary cages, how are they supposed to have any clue on how to act in a social order? If they're raised in a colony but without any experienced rabbit to know the order and how to behave, that can teach them.. how can we expect it to be perfect? An example of elephants come to mind; they moved a bunch of young elephants to anew place and they turned out to be real trouble makers. Then they got an adult elephant in there and they settled down and learned how to behave. (I believe it was a few decades before they learnt how to move an adult elephant..) I'm not saying rabbits are like elephants, but they do learn from their mothers rather than having a genetic memory like animal species that's abandoned as eggs/newborns and have to learn everything on their own. I think their parents/adult rabbits experiences shape the kits to an extent.

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I'm thinking of many advice I got when I started with rabbits. Several people told me I had just bought new pets, I'd never be able to raise or process for meat (not here at all because people here have some kind of respect for others). Then the colony.. lots of people saying it won't work (not just here, a lot in other forums too), all rabbits always fight, it's animal cruelty, they wouldn't have enough space, some would always be bullied etc etc, then when I had troubles with not getting kits it started again (and that was mostly here because by then I'd learnt to be quiet on the other places); it was because I had a colony, colonies never work, I should put them in cages etc.. and then it tured out that they started having kits again and everything worked fine, still in the colony. Had I turned back to cages at those words it would have been a proof that colonies won't work.. Had I listened to people in the first place I'd never had any rabbits.
Please don't believe I'm not listening or appreciating any advice because I still want to try things.. I've learnt that one persons experience may differ from the one I'll get. I make a lot of mistakes that could have been avoided if I did everything others told me and believed on all the ''truths'' out there (that all rabbits kill each other for one) but there would be a lot of things I had missed out on as well. I wouldn't see my rabbits interact and groom each other, I wouldn't even have rabbits.. I wouldn't have any sold art and I wouldn't have a horse to ride, I'd never get to feel Crow flatwalk if I listened to the people saying standardbreds can only pace..
I need to test and try and it's not something I do just to step on peoples toes.. :/

It's good to know I don't have to worry about kits that's born with a buck, or a doe taken out to be bred.. I'll think about the neutered buck-friend for the other buck, as I mentioned.. and if it won't work out with Kori in the does pen I'll see what I can do... not sure he'll accept a neutered buck as he hasn't met any before, then again he is pretty sweet.

I have concidered grow outs, I keep them (separated by gender) untill 4-7 months sometimes. But if he would work with intact bucks, then I'd rather just keep a companion rabbit for him, and a neutered one.

I'm letting him in with the young does first.. may be a bit of a risk with their age, but they're both larger than him and it makes sense what someone said about rabbits bred early actually having a better chance of a healthy litter. Plus I figure it gives him a chance to cool down a bit in his attempts if they're too young to want him immediatly. Maybe I'm just making a whole ocean of new mistakes here, but..

Anyway.. I won't bet on the does self-regulating pregnancies.. I'll keep a close eye on their condition and am prepared to end the experiment if they are harmed from it or if he's too annoying with them.

Lol - I don't think anyone is saying 'our way or the highway' but are offering their experiences. My colony worked fine once it was all mothers, daughters and sisters but by then I was getting into showing and needed individual cages to keep track of litters, offer individualized care and keep them clean

My house bunnies share a cage - 3 intact does who are not related and different ages (15 months, 6 months and 2 months) - it wasn't easy at first but it is doable with a lot of patience and a good understanding of rabbit behavior and their needs.

Most of my AmChin does would be fine in a colony but individual cages are easier and I don't feel guilty about them not being with a buddy 24-7. They do get out into a play room several times a week with another doe but often I will come back to find each of them resting in their individual cages so they like their own personal territory as well.

If you are not worried about back to back litters exhausting your does and think your buck is not the pushy type then go for it.

I completely agree that early socialization is important for rabbits, and often compare kits to puppies in their need to learn social manners from others.

And I truely believe that by not keeping rabbits in a colony style we are causing rabbits to become less social with every generation.

I appreciate all advice and experiences, sometimes I just feel bad for asking advice and not following it 100%

I am a bit worried about the constant litters, but if it turns out that's happening, I can and will deal with it before it's too late

When I had pet rabbits before I kept them apart because that's what everyone did.. but if I can make it work with buddies, I think that's a better option. I breed for meat so I don't have to worry about finding homes for an unexpeted litter.. the only issue I have is that I want one or two litters per year to be pedigreed and registered. But I tink I can figure that out, especially since those does are not the ones with the buck.

Did/does your house bunnies get bitemark on their backs and butt from each other? I've noticed that Dill have some and I think her mothers are a bit mean to her once in a while, even though they greeted her so friendly. I'm not quite sure what to do with her if I can't keep her there but it's just been a short while and she could have gotten them from when they settled the pecking order again. She eats and so with them but she sits mostly alone. Maybe it's because there's 3 of them and none to pair with her.. but I really don't need a 6th doe and 4 rabbits in the smaller pen seems wrong. (it's perhaps 70sqft) but 3 is an odd number..and the sisters have already bonded pretty strongly. I'm trying to get Kyndel sold - even though it does feel a bit wrong to separate them, but I don't need two full sisters - and maybe then Kummin and Dill would ome closer. Kummin is the more gentle one. But it seems noone want a proven 1 year old doe with pedigrees both for the presevation and the show association. *sigh*

There were a few bites that broke the skin but mostly just flying fur. What I find helps is to switch cages often so they do not get territorial and are always exposed to another's scent. They first meet with the new one running loose and the established bun in a cage on the floor so they can see each other but not get into a full fight. They swap cages every couple days and after I feel compfortable I let them all loose in the house together. Once that goes smoothly after a few try's I put them in the same cage - 60 long x24 wide x 36 high with 3 levels and dividers and hiding spots - I watch closely and intervene if needed.

It is worth a try, definitely keep an eye on the does condition. It might depend a lot on the buck's disposition

In regards to the horse breeding one of the coolest setups I ever saw was a farm that breed Icelandic Horses, They had several large fields and set them up in little herds of one stallion with two or three mares,they lived together in a family group until it was time to wean, After the mares were removed the babies stayed with Daddy until they were a bit older and it was very low stress weaning. The horses were happy, gorgeous and well socialized.

Thanks.. I havn't seen any fight, but she's moving away from them. Couldn't feel any new bitemarks at least