Breeding For Pets, Mixing Breeds and General Ethics

Okay, so... I'm really disheartened with the BEW lionhead project. I'm debating scraping the whole thing, and rebuilding from the ground up.

I've pretty much accepted that it's going to be more difficult than I think I can emotionally handle to continue on the BEW Lionhead path. I'm just getting so discouraged with it, and I fear if I don't switch my focus to something a little easier soon, I will become frustrated enough to quit rabbits all together. I am not pleased with the stock that I have. I am not pleased with the results I am getting, nor with how hard it is for me to get good stock. I am not saying it should be easy, nor should it be cheap, but it's hard to find anything accessible and affordable. What I can afford, I can't get to. What I can get, I can't afford(or don't want).

I have been being ridiculed lately for the rabbits I breed. I don't mind the nest box surprises. I don't care that most of the colours are not showable, provided they are cute, and most importantly healthy.

How do you guys feel about people who breed simply for pet? I do intend to breed for health and conformation, but not worry about the colours so much. I would offer full disclosure on the colours in the background, but do not really want to worry about following the colour guidelines, and don't mind getting messed up colours.

I'm also thinking I'd like a pair of Hollands. Just a buck and doe, to breed for the occasional litter... Possibly to breed Lionlops from as well. Just one litter from the doe, pick the baby with the best mane/lop combo. Do the same with the buck, pick the best opposite sex mane/lop combo, and breed those two together.

I'm not really asking for people's approval. I'm just asking for people's thoughts. Either way, I will be breeding with health and conformation in mind, but not worry about it being acceptable colour for a show table. I do want good stock, and I intend to intelligently, but the majority of my rabbits end up in the pet market anyway. Do I become a "bad breeder" if I breed with that intention, since no matter what, I'm likely to sell the most of my rabbits as pets anyway?

"I" personally have no problem breeding for pets. It's a market.
You do need to be aware when breeding lionheads for the pet market that sometimes they aren't cared for well.

I've had lionheads rescues that are SO badly matted at the back end that the skin was tearing.

Mind I've had some come through that were in great shape and were easily sent along, but I've had one too many sorry soul come through that simply didn't receive the care that they required. So you'll need to figure out how much to breed to the standard, how much wool you want and all that.

Lionlops are becoming more popular at least in my area. Your challenge with them would be to breed them well. Though they should still sell.

and NO in my personal opinion that doesn't make you a bad breeder.

And personally....if I were being bashed on a rabbit board/facebook group I would simply leave it. If I were angry I'd fight to find a polite way to tell them why I was leaving.

People only buy pet rabbits for their kids and get rid of them when someone in the house gets sick of them. So I'm not much of a fan of people who breed for just pets.
Was at a swap Saturday and the kid wanted a rabbit, mom said to her, "we're not getting a rabbit, I can't even get rid of the one we have!"
I mean, sure, some people will stick with them. Those people should get them from shelters instead.
But rabbit urine is a terrible smell, buck urine is even worse. I was always annoyed with my rabbits, when I had some as pets and then later to breed, when they were indoors.
You cannot eat a shelter rabbit, media and police will loose their minds on you. So there's no where for them to go but overflow shelters.

As for mutts and colors, as long as you aren't passing them off as rare, fashionable, etc, who the heck cares what you cross.

Well, I'm probably not the one to respond to this, because I am basically a purist. I breed for my interpretation of the SOP, for myself and what satisfies me. There are enough mix breed pets in the world, and if I am not improving the breed, then why bother? I really do believe that. There are enough pets left over from a litter of 10, only two are generally of show quality. I won't put out more pets, that someone might take and try to start their own rabbitry with, and have similar problems. I can honestly say if I sold it as a pet, it's a good representation of the breed and worthy of breeding. Or else I cull it.

There is nothing wrong with breeding for the show table. Basically, what purpose do Lion heads serve except for something fanciful for the show table? That is why they were created.
I don't know why everyone wants to assume that people who breed for show don't care about health, litter size, milking ability, temperament. That's a bunch of Animal Rights stuff that only hurts anyone who breeds anything. Show people do not destroy any animal, irresponsible people destroy them, no matter what their purposes are. If you meet people like that, run away.

Why would show people not want health? What good is it if it looks pretty but dies before it breeds, won't produce viable kits, or produces sickly kits with poor growth? What good is it if it bites everything around it and can't be handled?

Following the strict protocols that many show breeders use might actually help you breed better stock. Keeping rabbits because of sentimental value that have faults that can't be worked around is the number one reason new breeders don't succeed.

Even if I was just breeding for pets (I don't show the Hollands), I still adhere to the SOP, and I breed the best I can and cull accordingly. Whatever you decide, make sure nothing leaves the house that is not quality, it will end up back in the gene pool eventually.

Having followed your adventures in rabbit-raising for at least 6 months via your posts here and on FB, I feel you follow the cardinal rules (granted, my idea of cardinal) of animal husbandry - you put your animals' health, housing and feed as a high priority (within financial constraints, which most of us have to deal with as well), you dispatch humanely when necessary, you do not waste (I prefer eating my casualties, but your method of feeding the forest is preferable to dumping in a landfill, shelter or incinerating), and you prepare your pet purchasers to be responsible pet owners as much as possible. Sticking to an SoP is fine, if you are intending to show, or sell to people who do, but experimenting is how new "breeds" are developed. Considering that Lionheads are a breed under development anyway, it seems a bit silly for people to give you a hard time over experimentation, and the subsequent sale of the "failures" as pets, but there will always be those who DO, just as there are people who claim rabbits should not be sold as meat animals. Personally, I find breeding animals for no reason other than "show", especially breeds which have genetically based health problems due to adherance to a "look" (thinking of dog and cat breeds here, as I am not as "up" on rabbit breeds), to be a bit distasteful, whereas pets serve a psychological purpose, as meat rabbits serve a physical. But you won't find me picketing dog or rabbit shows, or slamming folks who breed for shows, because they have a right to THEIR passtime, too. Rambling here, so I will shut up now.

Sky, I see where you got your confusion, and corrected that for clarity

I do intend to breed for health and conformation, as I know show breeders do. I do not intend to fuss over the colours, and will pick a healthy, friendly rabbit with a DQ colour over a prone to illness or nasty rabbit who is perfect for the show table. I intend to follow the SOP as best as possible for conformation, and throw colours to the wind.

I never said that show breeders don't breed for health. I know they do, and I know they have the best intentions of the breed in mind... but they also have to worry about colour, and I don't want that colour worry in there as well.

I am intending to cull hard on what I have now. My favourite doe is being terminally culled, because she is oversized, bad for the breeding pool, and I don't want her bred. I have another oversized doe who will be terminally culled. I have the two sable points, who are being sold, since they don't work for a BEW project. I have a VM SS that I would LOVE to keep, however I will pet it out, because I can't use shaded for BEW. I have an oddly coloured doe, who will be petted out or terminally culled if her ears go over 3.5". I am keeping my broken black doe, who is small and fits the SOP for conformation fairly well. I am keeping a harli VM buck who shows promise, to see how he grows out. I am hoping to get a VM doe from the same breeder as the holland pair(which she will be picking out as good breeding stock, but not worrying too much about the colours).

As far as the Lionlops go, I would be breeding for quality, and culling hard on that project. In a perfect world, I would be able to keep going until I had a pair of F3 Lionlops, who would produce what would be considered purebred lionlops... Not that I would promote them as a rare or recognized breed!! I don't ever intend to do anything tricky, or lie at all, I would explain to people how I bred them, and why I bred them. It would be a fun little side project, like MSD's Leonis Rex. I see tons of "lionlops" out there that are F1 crosses.

Ladysown - I try my best to make sure people realize how much work a Lionhead requires. I tell them that they must brush/comb weekly at least, daily when they are molting, and need to have hands on them daily, to make sure there's no mats building up. Some lines are prone to matting, though, it's the quality of the hair/wool. Mine have been relatively tangle free. I brush them once a week, and take off some shedding hair but otherwise, they're pretty good.

Bad Habit":10lukzkh said:

I have been being ridiculed lately for the rabbits I breed. I don't mind the nest box surprises. I don't care that most of the colours are not showable, provided they are cute, and most importantly healthy.

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WOW even after hearing the ridiculed scenario countless times, it still shocks me. Barring someone neglecting their rabbits, I can't imagine trying to ridicule a fellow breeder. Even with neglect I'd only state my opinion and then would move on. That being said please continue to breed your rabbits how you see fit. I personally breed Lionhead rabbits that I like looking at and have good temperaments. Maybe someday I will show rabbits but right now it's not my thing. I don't think most people get rabbits to show, so nice looking, friendly rabbits appeal to a lot of people. Yes there are a lot of pet owners that get a rabbit and then for whatever reason don't want it. There are a lot of people like myself that get a pet rabbit and keep it for it's life. I'm working on BEW myself but am real early in the game. I have 2 possible candidates to breed back to my 2 VM does, providing there are bucks.

People only buy pet rabbits for their kids and get rid of them when someone in the house gets sick of them.

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interesting.

this has NOT been my experience.

I do find that people do buy them for their kids, but not all, and not all with the same agenda.

about 5% are moved on in the first couple of months, usually to new homes, some returned to me.
about 25% or so are adult buyers (as in over college age)
about 10-15% are college age.
the rest are family pets. that's about 55-60% of my rabbits. Based on random follow ups most are still in their homes past six months. That's not flyby night dump 'em people. That's people buying buns because they really want to have one in their home.

So perhaps your mileage varies or your particular area.
OR perhaps you're buying into the house rabbit society stuff (as I see that same info given out on the pet boards).
OR perhaps my mileage varies because I don't sell $5-10 rabbits or give them away for free.

Mine have been relatively tangle free. I brush them once a week, and take off some shedding hair but otherwise, they're pretty good.

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this statement does my heart good. to know there are lines that are easy care lines. so should I ever bow to pressure received I know where to come for starter stock.

ladysown":1cq8br8k said:

Mine have been relatively tangle free. I brush them once a week, and take off some shedding hair but otherwise, they're pretty good.

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this statement does my heart good. to know there are lines that are easy care lines. so should I ever bow to pressure received I know where to come for starter stock.

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Well, I should follow that up with "provided they don't get wet." I have issues with babies sitting in the water dishes, their bums get wet and can often have a matting problem then.

Bad Habit":sshjahwm said:

Well, I should follow that up with "provided they don't get wet."

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:shock:
You're breeding Mogwais? :zombiebun:

I feel that as long as you bettering it, then you are good in my book. If you feel that what you are working towards will benefit the rabbits, then do it. I am looking to breed tricolor mini rex, but there are not enough in the area to make good ones, so I crossed in a Castor, whic completely screws up the babies coloring, but will ultimately better the variety, as they will carry the Tri gene and have the better conformation of the castor, then I will breed to them to my best reds, tris or, harlequins to get the color I need

switch my focus to something a little easier soon,

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I would not consider Hollands or Lion Lops easier than Lionheads.

People only buy pet rabbits for their kids and get rid of them when someone in the house gets sick of them.

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This has not been my experience, either. We screen buyers, and do turn people away. We make sure they understand that a rabbit can be a 10 year commitment, that they are not a good pet for a child but the adults should consider them theirs and they can share them with their children, that spaying and neutering greatly improves a rabbits pet qualities and we will always take them back if they no longer want them.

There are enough mix breed pets in the world, and if I am not improving the breed, then why bother?

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This is why I breed small mutts. The 'purist' are the reason that ND now die from stuck kits, or it is "normal" to take 2 or 3 litters before you get live ones. I am horrified at the current interpretation of the SOP for many of the small breeds and would never buy one of show quality for breeding.

Following the strict protocols that many show breeders use

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In the '80's I bred and showed ND and they didnt have half the health/breeding problems that ND do today, and the temperament hasn't improved that much either. I am in Canada, so maybe breeders here are not as strict in culling undesirable traits as those south of the border but some how I doubt it. I am please to hear Skysthelimit has high standards, but this is the exception and not the rule in my experience.

I am not saying that all mutts are perfect, the opposite is too often true and they can have just as many problems but at least they are accidents and not being purposely bred to have difficult births or punched in faces just to win on the show table.

Most people just want a loveable, healthy pet rabbit so I dont worry about the integrity of a breed. All the types of rabbits we have today are from people experimenting and cross breeding to fill a niche.

However, I am not sure why you (Bad Habit) would get rid of all your current rabbits. If you are going to go with mutts then you have some good foundation stock who have easy births, good mothering qualities and great pet temperaments. As long as they pass on these traits to their offspring, then keep em and cross breed them.

I read this, and the replies so far, and took a few minutes to think about it.

So know I gave this a lot of consideration before replying.

I think the majority of pet-oriented rabbit breeders really do not care anything for the animals, their health or temperaments, they breed for the $$$$$$$$$. I don't think you are or will or could ever be one of them. I think you care about the health and well-being of your animals, and I think if you want to breed cute little crossbreds to make nice pets for people, go for it.

I think in the rush to stay "pure" and "true" we often forget that everyone has their own way of things, and while there is a place in this world for a bred-pure, dyed-in-the-wool champion show rabbit, there's also a place for adorable little "mutt" bunnies. You don't have to have a pedigree to be a great pet.

Already some folk on another site have given me flak for breeding a non-BEW to a BEW, my goal is to get one nice buck kit and hold him back for breeding. When asked "well what if there's more than a buck kit" I replied that Vienna-marked Mini Rex are perfectly capable of being cute, sweet little pets, and since my emphasis is on good health, good temperaments and good conformation, they should be VERY nice pet-quality bunnies indeed! Well!!! APPARENTLY it is some kind of sin to some people to have a non-showable color.

So I rolled my eyes, thanked them for their opinion, and am eagerly awaiting a litter of totally mismarked cuteness. opcorn:

That said, I had some really bad luck with Hollands...if you do venture into Hollands, get "false dwarf" ones, less heartache IMO.

Bad Habit":1jikgxxj said:

Sky, I see where you got your confusion, and corrected that for clarity

I do intend to breed for health and conformation, as I know show breeders do.

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Well you did seem like you were just going to say forget all the rules and I'm breeding for pets, so who cares. These pets, unless they are altered, will enter the gene pool, and become someone elses quest for Lionheads, so I say don't put anything out there you wouldn't want back. If we are talking about lionheads, breed for high standards, not just pets, you will get plenty of pets in the long run...

If it's just meat mutts (I hate the term mutts), then who cares what you do?

__________ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:18 pm __________

dragonladyleanne":1jikgxxj said:

Considering that Lionheads are a breed under development anyway, it seems a bit silly for people to give you a hard time over experimentation, and the subsequent sale of the "failures" as pets, but there will always be those who DO,.

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That is the point. If you lament the problem of finding quality, then help the situataion by putting quality out there, not just pets.

__________ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:21 pm __________

jessie15273":1jikgxxj said:

I am looking to breed tricolor mini rex, but there are not enough in the area to make good ones, so I crossed in a Castor, whic completely screws up the babies coloring, but will ultimately better the variety, as they will carry the Tri gene and have the better conformation of the castor, then I will breed to them to my best reds, tris or, harlequins to get the color I need

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Actually Castor and agoutis are the basis of good tricolors. A true tricolor should be agouti based, not self based. Red it the non extension version of Castor, it is an agouti without banding.

__________ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:25 pm __________

Kyle@theHeathertoft":1jikgxxj said:

Already some folk on another site have given me flak for breeding a non-BEW to a BEW, my goal is to get one nice buck kit and hold him back for breeding.

That said, I had some really bad luck with Hollands...if you do venture into Hollands, get "false dwarf" ones, less heartache IMO.

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Breeding BEW to non BEW is a good way to get the type from the non BEW into you stock, anyone who is giving you flack for that knows nothing about breeding.

Patriot, the only holland out of five to give me kits (record of 7) is a true dwarf. I learned that after litter number 4, this last litter, that gave me one peanut that survived until day 8. First one in four litters. She is within breed standard for weight, actually the smallest of the does. The key is to check the lines you have, it's not completely a breed thing, but indiscriminate breeding makes it that way.

__________ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:37 pm __________

Dood":1jikgxxj said:

switch my focus to something a little easier soon,

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I would not consider Hollands or Lion Lops easier than Lionheads.

People only buy pet rabbits for their kids and get rid of them when someone in the house gets sick of them.

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This has not been my experience, either. We screen buyers, and do turn people away. We make sure they understand that a rabbit can be a 10 year commitment, that they are not a good pet for a child but the adults should consider them theirs and they can share them with their children, that spaying and neutering greatly improves a rabbits pet qualities and we will always take them back if they no longer want them.

There are enough mix breed pets in the world, and if I am not improving the breed, then why bother?

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This is why I breed small mutts. The 'purist' are the reason that ND now die from stuck kits, or it is "normal" to take 2 or 3 litters before you get live ones. I am horrified at the current interpretation of the SOP for many of the small breeds and would never buy one of show quality for breeding.

Following the strict protocols that many show breeders use

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In the '80's I bred and showed ND and they didnt have half the health/breeding problems that ND do today, and the temperament hasn't improved that much either. I am in Canada, so maybe breeders here are not as strict in culling undesirable traits as those south of the border but some how I doubt it. I am please to hear Skysthelimit has high standards, but this is the exception and not the rule in my experience.

However, I am not sure why you (Bad Habit) would get rid of all your current rabbits. If you are going to go with mutts then you have some good foundation stock who have easy births, good mothering qualities and great pet temperaments. As long as they pass on these traits to their offspring, then keep em and cross breed them.

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Nothing is what it was in the 80's nothing. People want it fast and furious. It's not the purist, it's the idiots who don't know what they are doing before they breed, or just want that one more win, irregardless to the well being of the animals. I have no love of ND, I've raised one and I will never have one again. The show world is not exclusive to this problem, it's an epidemic of our society. The "whatever is cute" is the VERY reason for those type of problem, what was good looking on the show table vs what was right for the breed. Breeding for pretty pets, IMO, is the same as breeding for pretty show rabbits only.

If I am the only exception people meet, then they need to get out more often. As far as I can tell, the other people are the exception, and the people I know, on various FB and other groups, are about sick to death of those people.

If you are just breeding meat mutts or experimenting, then go on ahead. But with you are working with a breed, then do the best you can do, reach for the goal of a good example of the breed, not just pets.

__________ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:44 pm __________

Kyle@theHeathertoft":1jikgxxj said:

That said, I had some really bad luck with Hollands...if you do venture into Hollands, get "false dwarf" ones, less heartache IMO.

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I did tell you I culled the others right? Even if one had a kit, why perpetuate a line that does that.

But...I don't see anything terrible with hollands taking 2-3 tries. Aren't we using the 3 strikes rule for most of our breedings? So that is within the three strikes rule. If I told you my Rex/SF doe took 2 times to give me a live litter, you would tell me to give her one more try, so why not the hollands? But I am at the point now, where I am even unwilling to give a second try. It's too much work, when I could replace the doe with one of the kits I am raising. I am willing to cull for anything. Anything. I culled half my herd because they weren't gaining weight right, and now I see it could have been feed mismanagement, but that's what I did. I don't keep anything because it's cute. If it's not a good representation, I terminally cull it. And I advocate the same. You may not like my harshness, but know if you ever get anything from me it will be top shelf.

So you have to take anything I say with that in mind.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Transparency is a great thing, but being transparent opens you up to criticism. This can be good or bad. Critical thoughts are necessary to growth, but at the same time, criticism by those who don't know much, or don't choose to agree can be hurtful. Sure, there are some things others may reveal that are holes in our plan. Sometimes there are ways we can separate ourselves from the criticism and learn from it.

Why you breed rabbits is up to you. Whether or not anyone agrees with it, is their problem NOT yours. Do I agree with breeding for pets? Personally, no. I believe there are too many animals out there, adn the pet market can be satisfied with well bred babies from breeders who choose to deal with a pet buyer occasionally. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't breed them. They are yours, you can do what you wish.

I think the bigger question is the goals you want to achieve. If you don't want to show, fine but WHY are you breeding. Are you breeding for good temperaments, pretty colors, big manes - whatever. Write these down, and firmly adhere to these. Every 6 months go through your stock and decide what fits the criteria you have set out of what you have. Remove from the breeding program what doesn't.

I will say, if you want serious rabbits, you ARE going to have to pay for them. I am saving up a number somewhere in the 4 digits to buy a rabbit in the next couple years. Yes, I said that. Yes, I am serious. I can't do this now, buy by saving the price of one rabbit per litter, I will get there. In the meantime, I am working on buying rabbits that go BACK to that line in the first generation. Work with what you have, and come up with a game plan for what you want. Do not bring in ANYTHING without an end goal in mind. You can waste a lot of cage space, time, and money buying mediocre rabbits.

And finally: One thing that life has taught me is explain nothing. State your position, don't ask for approval, and be secure in your convictions for you. Don't worry about what others think about that .

This is one of those topics that people can feel very strongly about.

But it's true. Breed for what you want and stick to it.
Determine what you want to breed for, be willing to refine it as you learn more or see more, or have the ability to be tougher about what you keep.
and know that sometimes....a bunny will come along that will make you revamp your thoughts a bit and that's okay, as long as that bunny is healthy and good temperamentally.

If I am the only exception people meet, then they need to get out more often.

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I traveled over most of Southern Ontario (an area the size of West Virginia) looking for Holland Lops for my sister to start her herd-I was disgusted. I then went looking for Mini Lops and had better luck but not in the show stock but their culls who were longer in he body and had a mandolin shape with nice big butts.

I agree that 'backyard breeders' add to the problem but so do the committed breeders who have warped the SOP so only malformed rabbits win, or those who sell culls as pets to people who have no clue but decide to have just one litter that ends up killing their doe or her first litter, or who sell rabbits that are so genetically inferior they should be culled and never leave their rabbitry.

I now believe Bad Habit will not just breed for pretty pets, and I certainly dont. I breed for healthy, friendly, easy keeping rabbits that will be a joy to share a life with and if their owners decide to breed them against my wishes then I won't have nightmares about them dying giving birth or their innocent unborn kits suffocating to death trying to get out.<br /><br />__________ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:19 pm __________<br /><br />

the pet market can be satisfied with well bred babies from breeders

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I have yet to find a 'well bred' small breed rabbit I would want to breed.

Dood":3stxltwe said:

switch my focus to something a little easier soon,

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I would not consider Hollands or Lion Lops easier than Lionheads.

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Well, I can find Holland stock a LOT easier than I can find VM or BEW Lionhead stock, lol. That's all that I meant by it, it would be easier for me to find quality to work with.

Dood":3stxltwe said:

However, I am not sure why you (Bad Habit) would get rid of all your current rabbits. If you are going to go with mutts then you have some good foundation stock who have easy births, good mothering qualities and great pet temperaments. As long as they pass on these traits to their offspring, then keep em and cross breed them.

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Because two are oversized(Hannah and Star), two are sold pending pick up(Crystal and Snow), one's horrible for mane(too short-Hannah), two don't have any proper break or saddle area(Crystal and Snow), and one's just a wench(Star). I might keep back Snow or Crystal if the sales fall through, but I'm not breeding 4lb+ lionheads. I'm hoping to get another keeper from Star's litter she's pregnant with.

Kyle@theHeathertoft":3stxltwe said:

I think the majority of pet-oriented rabbit breeders really do not care anything for the animals, their health or temperaments, they breed for the $$$$$$$$$. I don't think you are or will or could ever be one of them. I think you care about the health and well-being of your animals, and I think if you want to breed cute little crossbreds to make nice pets for people, go for it.

I think in the rush to stay "pure" and "true" we often forget that everyone has their own way of things, and while there is a place in this world for a bred-pure, dyed-in-the-wool champion show rabbit, there's also a place for adorable little "mutt" bunnies. You don't have to have a pedigree to be a great pet.

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Well, if I did do lionlops, it would be mutt bunnies for pet rabbits, only because the ones I see around are HORRIBLE little beasts. Most have wretched attitudes, and bad manes, poorly done ears... just generally awful. That and to have something different to offer people.

I do want to keep breeding pure lionheads, just not fuss about the colour rules. There's too many, any time I try to understand them, I'm told I'm wrong. I'm just sick of it, and sick of the people bringing me down because of them. I've been told that all of my harlequins should be culled because it's not going to be an approved colour. I've been told that I'm stupid for having(and wanting) broken lionheads. The fact of the matter is, I just don't care anymore. If rabbit a has a big butt, and rabbit b has a narrow butt, I'm going to breed them, and hope for an average butt, and who cares about the colours!

skysthelimit":3stxltwe said:

Bad Habit":3stxltwe said:

Sky, I see where you got your confusion, and corrected that for clarity

I do intend to breed for health and conformation, as I know show breeders do.

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Well you did seem like you were just going to say forget all the rules and I'm breeding for pets, so who cares. These pets, unless they are altered, will enter the gene pool, and become someone elses quest for Lionheads, so I say don't put anything out there you wouldn't want back. If we are talking about lionheads, breed for high standards, not just pets, you will get plenty of pets in the long run...

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As I said, I am going to focus on health, temperament and conformation, and say to heck with colours. I'm saying forget all the colour rules. I want nestbox rainbows, so don't care what the rabbit has in the past. Yes, I'm still hoping to get a bit of stock to use for BEW lionheads, and will follow those colour rules, since they are fairly simple.

Oceanrose":3stxltwe said:

I will say, if you want serious rabbits, you ARE going to have to pay for them. I am saving up a number somewhere in the 4 digits to buy a rabbit in the next couple years. Yes, I said that. Yes, I am serious. I can't do this now, buy by saving the price of one rabbit per litter, I will get there. In the meantime, I am working on buying rabbits that go BACK to that line in the first generation. Work with what you have, and come up with a game plan for what you want. Do not bring in ANYTHING without an end goal in mind. You can waste a lot of cage space, time, and money buying mediocre rabbits.

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You might find it plausible to save up 4 digits for a rabbit. I do not. I do not balk at paying 50$ - 100$ for a rabbit. I would go up to 150$ with transport, but beyond that, you're talking crazy to me. I do understand that I have to pay for quality. The breeder I am talking to about lops is talking 50$ - 75$ per rabbit. Which I am not excited about, but accept, since I want to start with a quality pair. A rabbit would have to produce diamond encrusted gold turds for me to consider paying 4 digits for it.

Dood":3stxltwe said:

I now believe Bad Habit will not just breed for pretty pets, and I certainly dont. I breed for healthy, friendly, easy keeping rabbits that will be a joy to share a life with and if their owners decide to breed them against my wishes then I won't have nightmares about them dying giving birth or their innocent unborn kits suffocating to death trying to get out.

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That. That right there. That's why I started breeding.

Bad Habit":qu2ok2k1 said:

I've been told that I'm stupid for having(and wanting) broken lionheads. The fact of the matter is, I just don't care anymore. If rabbit a has a big butt, and rabbit b has a narrow butt, I'm going to breed them, and hope for an average butt, and who cares about the colours!

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What is the argument against broken lionheads? I'm curious as I find them quite adorable. I recently had 2 8week old babies for sale, one was a broken black and the other a fawn with some soot throughout her mane. Out of the 10 or so inquiries I received, everyone was for the broken black. People loved the broken. I may have had a hard selling the fawn if it were not for the fact that the person fell in love with both of them.

ckcs":104ptlbz said:

Bad Habit":104ptlbz said:

I've been told that I'm stupid for having(and wanting) broken lionheads. The fact of the matter is, I just don't care anymore. If rabbit a has a big butt, and rabbit b has a narrow butt, I'm going to breed them, and hope for an average butt, and who cares about the colours!

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What is the argument against broken lionheads? I'm curious as I find them quite adorable. I recently had 2 8week old babies for sale, one was a broken black and the other a fawn with some soot throughout her mane. Out of the 10 or so inquiries I received, everyone was for the broken black. People loved the broken. I may have had a hard selling the fawn if it were not for the fact that the person fell in love with both of them.

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Why am I bothering with broken lionheads when they're not even accepted as a breed yet, I should be focusing on the colours that will be accepted, rather than anything else.