are rabbits "strictly" herbivorous

I have come to believe ,from years of experience- that rabbits are not strictly herbivore , old rabbit raising books definitely suggest feeding rabbits meat / animal products [as a small part of the diet], My research shows that they readily consume, and are benefited by animal base protein.
When I was being paid to test feeds, I fed a pellet with alfalfa , wheat, and oat base and a premix / concentrate ,that included meat and bone meal [Moormans] Rabbits fed this pellet did much better then the Purina pellet we used for a control, - does were more productive, and had a longer productive life, as well as young growing just a little faster, and less mortality. I know 6 years of testing is not enough to make any wild claims. but-- I am convinced.
-- -- so-- the question is-- where is the documentation and testing to support the claims expressed so freely on the net, and in modern books, --that "Rabbits are strictly Herbivore" ??

That is interesting....do you feed your rabbits meat?

Thinking Rationally I can see the value in using Protein from multiple sources, at the end of he day a protein chain is essentially made of the same things as a carbohydrate chain, there is just a denser, nitrogen fixing arrangement(amino acids).

I think that the water solubility of the protein source would be the important variable, as most meat eating animals carry Gut bacteria and produce enzymes that can break down proteins more efficiently then single gut or hind-gut digestive tract, thus the ability of the protein to disseminate into the bloodstream would become an important factor.
(no source for this, just thinking out loud )

Also it has already been established that feeding fish meal as a source of supplementary protein to many primary herbivores will cause faster growth and improved condition, historically many meat producers used animal by-products as a source of protein, this practice has been mostly abandoned due to disease concerns.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5019e/y5019e03.htm (about 3/4 down the article they discuss animal based protein sources)

Now while i agree that there is huge potential in increasing the amount of digestible protein, i would be very unsure how effective "Meat" protein would be, as the rabbits would be lacking critical enzymes needed to digest said protein.

Not to mention that if you are supplementing a herbivore with meat or animal protein, that will just add to the expense to feed the rabbit, and i think the efficiency of a gut full of "meat" vs a gut full of pellets and the total protein absorbed by the rabbit could be called into question.

First, let me state that I've only had a few litters on a purina feed, and I'm already ready for a switch. WAY too much fat on my animals bodies. It could just be that purina was a poor choice for comparison. :lol:

As to strict herbivores...well...I doubt anything in nature is really that black and white.

After all, animal products have a lot of nutrition to offer, and tend to be relatively easy to digest.

Most people have probably seen the webcams of deer eating baby birds by now. It shouldn't be too much of a surprise that occasional nutritional imbalances can be corrected by a bit of meat. (or placenta, in the case of most mammals shortly after birthing

That said, I'm not comfortable with something like "animal fat" on my rabbits feed. (The most common animal product I've seen) I won't buy dog feed with such a label either.
I'd rather know exactly what kind of animal was being used.

I have read a study which claims to have demonstrated that rabbits can process animal fats just as easily as they can process plant oils. Unfortunately, fat only really helped put FAT on a rabbit's body. Which makes it of extremely limited use as a component of feed.

Nursing does were able to make the best use of it, because the fat would be used for milk production and the nestlings would use it for growth. Fed later, it just made for fryers with more fat on their bodies.

I really don't feel any need to give them animal fats when black oil sunflower seeds are readily available and much more nutritious. I'd much rather give the seeds only to the nursing does, as needed, than fatten up my entire herd by allowing oils as a component of their pellets.

I feel they already get more than enough calcium, so that makes bone meal obsolete.

And finally, any meat around here is eaten up by humans, cats, or dogs.

I keep rabbits to produce meat, after all, not to eat it!

If it's processed in to commercial food such as a meal that can be added to pellets/kibble most animals can eat an animal protein and probably use some of it. That's heavily processed protein though. It hardly resembles animal meat anymore. It's down to it's basic amino acid structure. If you go give your rabbit actual meat it will probably get sick soon. Maybe not with the first piece of cooked meat but soon. They can't break it down in that form, get little nutrition from it, and there is a risk of bacterial growth while it is traveling through the very long digestive tract. Raw would of course be even worse. It may have a purpose in commercial diets if you want to use it but for the purpose of the table scraps discussion it is not a good idea and I would not place it under a natural diet or species appropriate diet.

Mary Ann's Rabbitry":jate9fp4 said:

That is interesting....do you feed your rabbits meat?

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I have and do feed "meat" to rabbits, but-- this needs to be explained.- By first talking about a basic diet of good hay like timothy, or even good quality Coastal Bermuda.-then, alfalfa or Perennial Peanut hay can be added, but should not be more then 50%.. with this as the "base diet", and always available to them, [not limit fed] -- after this I add a high calorie supplement in the form of cooked potato , scraps of most foods [including cooked meat ] are added, and mixed into to this cooked potato supplement, then, if there is not already a lot of fat in the added food scraps I will add a little sunflower oil, [from used deep fryer oil --no more then 1 cup/ 10 lbs of potato].-- dry does and Bucks get about a 2 inch diameter ball of this potato and food scrap mixture each day. Does with litters get more, depending on what I feel their needs are.

Personally I'm not going to be feeding my rabbits meat but Protein is protein and rabbits do have the enzymes to digest animal proteins.

Most research in rabbit nutrition is done in Europe and animal proteins have been banned for use in feeds for several years over there so the studies are few but one study found weaned rabbits grew better on animal plasma as a protein source then soybean meal. - Gutiérrez I., García P., Carabaño R., de Blas J.C. 2000. Effect of supplementation with animal plasma and antibiotics on jejunal morphology of early-weaned rabbits. World Rabbit Sci., 8: 263- 267.

And the researchers believe using highly digestible animal based protein could significantly reduce deaths due to weaning enteritis - http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ign ... 5e5b000000

Dood":1746utwl said:

Personally I'm not going to be feeding my rabbits meat but Protein is protein and rabbits do have the enzymes to digest animal proteins.

Most research in rabbit nutrition is done in Europe and animal proteins have been banned for use in feeds for several years over there so the studies are few but one study found weaned rabbits grew better on animal plasma as a protein source then soybean meal. - Gutiérrez I., García P., Carabaño R., de Blas J.C. 2000. Effect of supplementation with animal plasma and antibiotics on jejunal morphology of early-weaned rabbits. World Rabbit Sci., 8: 263- 267.

And the researchers believe using highly digestible animal based protein could significantly reduce deaths due to weaning enteritis - http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ign ... 5e5b000000

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What I did manage to take out of this so far, is an understanding of why including mashed pumpkin and oatmeal (with their high soluble fiber content) in my early weaned kit's diet seems to help immensely.

They feel animal protein is better than soy, but there aren't enough comparisons to other common protein sources.
To me it reads..."soy is not very good."

Maybe this might explain why some does will eat there young .. no matter what you do .. and not because something was around there cage either... I know some rabbit pellets do contain tallow.. animal fats. . but allot of that is bad because of the source of it.

I am not a firm believer that a rabbit enjoy eating meat. Just like humans ,, some are vegetarian , they can get their protein from plant base and be ok.. <br /><br /> -- Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:43 pm -- <br /><br />

michaels4gardens":1zuwu6ip said:

Mary Ann's Rabbitry":1zuwu6ip said:

That is interesting....do you feed your rabbits meat?

Click to expand...

I have and do feed "meat" to rabbits, but-- this needs to be explained.- By first talking about a basic diet of good hay like timothy, or even good quality Coastal Bermuda.-then, alfalfa or Perennial Peanut hay can be added, but should not be more then 50%.. with this as the "base diet", and always available to them, [not limit fed] -- after this I add a high calorie supplement in the form of cooked potato , scraps of most foods [including cooked meat ] are added, and mixed into to this cooked potato supplement, then, if there is not already a lot of fat in the added food scraps I will add a little sunflower oil, [from used deep fryer oil --no more then 1 cup/ 10 lbs of potato].-- dry does and Bucks get about a 2 inch diameter ball of this potato and food scrap mixture each day. Does with litters get more, depending on what I feel their needs are.

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I have to asked... how many rabbits do you have? and do you feed any pellets or grains at all

Mary Ann's Rabbitry":12bhig98 said:

Maybe this might explain why some does will eat there young .. no matter what you do .. and not because something was around there cage either... I know some rabbit pellets do contain tallow.. animal fats. . but allot of that is bad because of the source of it.

I am not a firm believer that a rabbit enjoy eating meat. Just like humans ,, some are vegetarian , they can get their protein from plant base and be ok..

-- Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:43 pm --

michaels4gardens":12bhig98 said:

Mary Ann's Rabbitry":12bhig98 said:

That is interesting....do you feed your rabbits meat?

Click to expand...

I have and do feed "meat" to rabbits, but-- this needs to be explained.- By first talking about a basic diet of good hay like timothy, or even good quality Coastal Bermuda.-then, alfalfa or Perennial Peanut hay can be added, but should not be more then 50%.. with this as the "base diet", and always available to them, [not limit fed] -- after this I add a high calorie supplement in the form of cooked potato , scraps of most foods [including cooked meat ] are added, and mixed into to this cooked potato supplement, then, if there is not already a lot of fat in the added food scraps I will add a little sunflower oil, [from used deep fryer oil --no more then 1 cup/ 10 lbs of potato].-- dry does and Bucks get about a 2 inch diameter ball of this potato and food scrap mixture each day. Does with litters get more, depending on what I feel their needs are.

Click to expand...

I have to asked... how many rabbits do you have? and do you feed any pellets or grains at all

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right now, I raise around 500 / year [from 12 to 14 does, and 2 bucks] and I keep a few replacements here also, I do feed grains when the price is right [ I prefer oats],or pellets and grains -if I run short on potatoes, J Artichokes, and sugar beet. I do prefer to raise all of my feed, but-it is not a perfect world, and sometimes I must make some substitutions. I also feed a lot of Kale, Chicory, weeds, carrot, and Swede. The hay I am using now is a mix of grasses [mostly Orchard Grass and Timothy], and alfalfa .

-- Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:46 pm --

just a note, about feed changes, -- feed changes are best made before the young leave the nest, as the doe provides the enzymes , and bacteria to the young to digest the food she is getting, if the feed change is made after the young leave the nest, they will not have the balance they need, and a much larger risk of enteritis , and other digestive upset should be expected.

-- Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:29 am --

Mary Ann's Rabbitry":12bhig98 said:

Maybe this might explain why some does will eat there young .. no matter what you do .. and not because something was around there cage either... I know some rabbit pellets do contain tallow.. animal fats. . but allot of that is bad because of the source of it.

I am not a firm believer that a rabbit enjoy eating meat. Just like humans ,, some are vegetarian , they can get their protein from plant base and be ok..

Click to expand...

I would agree that feeding a lot of fat to rabbits [other then does nursing a litter] is bad, --if you feed too much animal fat to growing rabbits , too much is stored in the body, and they develop "off flavors". If you feed too much vegetable fat to your rabbits they store it in the body also, but, it is very soft and jelly like and depending on what kind of vegetable oil you feed, it can also "flavor" the meat. ---and-- if you feed to much fat to bucks and dry does, you will cause health, and breeding problems.

RE:{rabbits enjoy eating meat]
I suppose you are right, --but, I have never met a rabbit who will turn their nose up at a piece of bologna,bacon, hot dog, ham, or roast beef, but- I have met some who do not like fish.
-- - and as far as some rabbits getting their needs met being a vegetarian, -- that is the beauty of raising meat rabbits, they can and do, live and grow well on a wide variety of foods, including diets that contain no foods that humans can digest very well. - That is why it was required by law, in some Countries, for all families to raise rabbits for a food source.

RE:, Rabbits who eat their young...
I have come to believe, that most cannibalism from does [ of good breeding lines] can be stopped by something as simple as giving them a small piece of bologna each day for a week. [But will freely admit that some does are just not suitable mothers and need to be "recycled" .

michaels4gardens":34m9c630 said:

That is why it was required by law, in some Countries, for all families to raise rabbits for a food source.

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Whoa... :shock: Seriously? Please tell us more. opcorn:

MamaSheepdog":14pwpt82 said:

michaels4gardens":14pwpt82 said:

That is why it was required by law, in some Countries, for all families to raise rabbits for a food source.

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Whoa... :shock: Seriously? Please tell us more. opcorn:

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Keeping Rabbits on Scraps, by Claude H. Goodchild - Penguin Books 1941, page 99
states that is was a decree in Italy, making it compulsory ,unless deemed "unpractical" to keep rabbits,...--
also much pressure was put on people to raise rabbits in Russia, Germany, and then war time Great Britain.

I have read other sources of this info, -- but can't remember where, -- .. sorry

michaels4gardens":3o3i3zgl said:

Goodchild Penguin Books 1941, page 99
states that is was a decree in Italy, making it compulsory ,unless deemed "unpractical" to keep rabbits,...--
also much pressure was put on people to raise rabbits in Russia, Germany, and then Great Britain.

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Ah. Sounds like it was related to the Great Depression, then. I wonder if any of those laws are still on the books?

MamaSheepdog":2r8cppu0 said:

michaels4gardens":2r8cppu0 said:

Goodchild Penguin Books 1941, page 99
states that is was a decree in Italy, making it compulsory ,unless deemed "unpractical" to keep rabbits,...--
also much pressure was put on people to raise rabbits in Russia, Germany, and then Great Britain.

Click to expand...

Ah. Sounds like it was related to the Great Depression, then. I wonder if any of those laws are still on the books?

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actually it was more directly related to war, [but, depression, was and is, the result of war, and war is usually the result of economic problems] so-- I suppose you are right, ... I have no idea if they are still on the books , -- or not,[ but i doubt it, considering all the AR pressure] -- but , I would be willing to bet a thread about "how to raise rabbits when the lights go out" would be of great benefit to a great many people very soon, --- ..

michaels4gardens":3jmcjfeq said:

I would be willing to bet a thread about "how to raise rabbits when the lights go out" would be of great benefit to a great many people very soon, --- ..

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Fear of impending catastrophe brought on by our "dear leader" is what led me to raise rabbits and experiment with a grain and gathered weeds diet. My rabbits are on pellets now, but at least I know it is possible.

In the time I have been here at RT, I have noticed that a great majority of our new members also began raising rabbits because of similar concerns.

MamaSheepdog":23d76n9g said:

michaels4gardens":23d76n9g said:

I would be willing to bet a thread about "how to raise rabbits when the lights go out" would be of great benefit to a great many people very soon, --- ..

Click to expand...

Fear of impending catastrophe brought on by our "dear leader" is what led me to raise rabbits and experiment with a grain and gathered weeds diet. My rabbits are on pellets now, but at least I know it is possible.

In the time I have been here at RT, I have noticed that a great majority of our new members also began raising rabbits because of similar concerns.

Click to expand...

Not many people raise sugar beets, but-- it is one of the best feeds for production rabbits I know of. --it is low in fiber but, even the addition of dry corn stalks , or straw, can remedy this problem. It can get you through the winter and still maintain very good production. Does fed this during lactation do very well, and maintain condition better then a lot of other feed programs..

I don't have any first hand experience with it yet, but my (future) mother in law raised a lot of rabbits many a year ago and gave expecting does bacon shortly before kindling. Something about the fat making it less likely for them to cannibalize their babies.

Desolim":33266v1p said:

I don't have any first hand experience with it yet, but my (future) mother in law raised a lot of rabbits many a year ago and gave expecting does bacon shortly before kindling. Something about the fat making it less likely for them to cannibalize their babies.

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From my experience modern rabbits very rarely have a problem with cannibalizing their young. So taking a measure to prevent something that isn't a problem for the vast majority of breeders always confuses me.

I've yet to have one single cannibalized litter.

Perhaps older-style rabbit diets were severely lacking in fat or protein?
It seems likely that nutrient imbalances in rabbit diets may have been a lot more common in the past. Hmm...

As for rabbits refusing meat. I do have two house rabbits that I offer all sorts of bits and pieces of whatever I'm eating to. Offering Mucky and Sushi a lick of my food is just one of my daily interactions with them. Before anyone gets concerned about that, we do not eat a whole lot of uber processed foods...so it's not like I'm offering her bites of mc Donalds cheeseburgers or Twinkies. Bleh. I can't eat that stuff either. As I have some rather severe internal problems, I am very careful about what I eat and very aware of the ingredient lists.

Anyway. Mucky has licked at rabbit gravy, and Sushi likes my homemade pizza crust (it has egg in it), but neither would actually eat the roast beef, venison, or any other meat I've put in front of them.

My suspicion is...if I was mainly feeding an all natural diet instead of pellets, they would be quicker to take the meat.

Definitely something to keep in mind if the pellet supply ever runs out or gets too expensive.

-- Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:04 pm --

Syberchick actually posted a link with nutritional breakdown of pellet brands on another thread. It showed that the purina pellets I'm feeding are actually nutritionally unbalanced in a few areas. I was able to see how I'd unintentionally been compensating for gaps I was unaware of just by monitoring which food helped improved my doe's milk supply and fryer growth rates...and everyone's overall health and digestion.

If I fed strictly those pellets without supplementing...I wonder if my buns would eventually develop poor habits like cannibalism due to dietary deficiencies over a long period of time?

Zass":x58rjijo said:

If I fed strictly those pellets without supplementing...I wonder if my buns would eventually develop poor habits like cannibalism due to dietary deficiencies over a long period of time?

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I think that's a very good point and it seems that rabbits are particularly good at understanding what they need and compensating in their diets... well, that might be especially true after they are adults. I certainly wouldn't experiment with feeding strange stuff to kits and in fact, I'm super careful about it with my adults.

Like... 'here's a dandelion. Yeah, I know that was delicious, but just one' :lol:

in my opinion, - cannibalism is not often because of feed issues, it is an hereditary trait that should be aggressively bred out. Right now my rabbits are getting only restaurant waste [including a lot of meat scraps] and grass hay - they are doing well and raising litters just fine.
I believe rabbits can be raised successfully on a wide variety of diets, by someone who knows rabbits and pays very good attention.