any one got any tips on how to pick up a unwilling rabbit

I have a doe I bought from the local farm supply store and found her to be extremely anti-social. She turns her head into the furthest corner and does not want to be picked up. I have to get her out of the corner so I grab her ears as gently but firmly as I can and have to drag her around into position, lifting her forequarters off the cage floor. I then insert the other hand under her belly and support/lift her out of the cage, guiding her head out still holding the ears. Once out of the cage, depending on her attitude, I will simply clamp her rear with my elbow and support her front with that hand, stroking her head with the other. I can also cover her eyes if needed as she will sometimes startle over "nothing."

When putting my hand into the cage, I also lift it over her head which causes her to crouch rather than lunging and barking at me. She has bitten me once, but that was with a litter in the nestbox and I wasn't reading her signs correctly. If she bites again, I will bite her ear back and see if that gets the message home.

I will also pin her to the floor of the cage when she gets too unruly with the lunging and barking without kits in the nestbox.

She also tried the lunging and barking at me when I was getting her out of the grass pen, but I just pin her to the ground for a minute until she submits/relaxes.

She is certainly a handful, but is an amazing mother that has given me 2 litters of 11/12 kits and has great milk production, yet weans the kits willingly and easily.

AnnClaire":1qa6ssor said:

When putting my hand into the cage, I also lift it over her head which causes her to crouch rather than lunging and barking at me. She has bitten me once, but that was with a litter in the nestbox and I wasn't reading her signs correctly. If she bites again, I will bite her ear back and see if that gets the message home.

I will also pin her to the floor of the cage when she gets too unruly with the lunging and barking without kits in the nestbox.

She also tried the lunging and barking at me when I was getting her out of the grass pen, but I just pin her to the ground for a minute until she submits/relaxes.

She is certainly a handful, but is an amazing mother that has given me 2 litters of 11/12 kits and has great milk production, yet weans the kits willingly and easily.

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Sounds to me like you are trying to "Cesar Milan" her as if she were a dog. I don't like his methods used on dogs much less on a rabbit. Seems to me that all you are doing is reinforcing her fear and her response is the fight part of fight-or-flight since she obviously can't get away. If dominance is your goal, you are on track....

Frecs":2cmy7qnh said:

Now, I am going to practice handling them with the pickup and carry method explained here...except the getting them out of the cage part is a challenge...they like to go to the back of the cage and I have to grab the scruff and pull them forward which "they" say I should not do but I don't know what else to do!

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When I had my first litters of kits I didn't play with them much because I didn't want to get attached to them and then have to send them to freezer camp. I ended up with some unfriendly does (they are much better now), and this is how I handle the "reluctant rabbits":

I put my hand behind them and "herd" them to the front of the cage. Sometimes they wont move, so I gently jiggle their hindquarters until they move forward a bit, praise them, and then try again until they have moved far enough forward to lift them out.

I don't scruff them- I put one hand over their shoulders and the other I slip under their belly, well back so my fingers are under them but my thumb is wrapped around the hind leg. When lifting, I simultaneously apply pressure down and back toward the "belly hand", and once out of the cage I bring them in against my body. You can keep your hands in the same position to take them to their destination or cradle them in one arm. They are calmer if you keep their head tucked in the crook of your arm so they can't see.

MamaSheepdog":146vpdvo said:

They are calmer if you keep their head tucked in the crook of your arm so they can't see.

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I found that one of my bucks (who has been "teething" me as if to bite but hasn't done so yet) is much calmer when I tuck his face into my arm. The other three prefer to be able to see, but Skipp definitely goes by the adage "if I can't see it/them, it/them does not exist".

I wish I'd thought about how hard it could be to get a rabbit from the back of a 30" deep cage before I bought the 30"x30" cages. They like to get to the back corner where they know I have trouble reaching them. So, I get a milk crate, stand on it and reach shoulder deep into the cage to get enough of a scruff (not neck..back more) to pull forward a bit where I can then maneuver a better "holding position" before continuing to bring them out.

I will never again purchase 30" deep cages...never ever....

My doe cages are 30" deep and on the top tier, and it is a tight squeeze for me too. I handle all of my kits now, and have the opposite problem- opening the in-and-up-swinging doors is quite a challenge because they mob the front of the cage!

MamaSheepdog":3katykgm said:

My doe cages are 30" deep and on the top tier, and it is a tight squeeze for me too. I handle all of my kits now, and have the opposite problem- opening the in-and-up-swinging doors is quite a challenge because they mob the front of the cage!

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That's a problem I look forward to having! :bunnyhop:

Frecs, you're also likely to see a few exhibitors with flemish giants that they can make comfortable in just about any handling situation you can think of short of yanking it up by its ears or legs. I saw a young girl in Dickson, TN last summer who spent the better part of her day with her flemish lying in her lap, flat on its back with its legs pointing straight up in the air, as she did everything from clipping its nails to rubbing its belly, to you name it. All that started with that girl getting the rabbit used to being handled at an early age.

I used flemish as an example, but there are plenty of others out there, as well. I've seen exhibitors with everything from dutch to mini rex to satins who've done the same thing. While it's true that not every rabbit will take to it like that, most of them will become rather accepting of and comfortable with being held and handled over time as they're exposed to it more often.

Yeah, I talked to a breeder at a show a few weeks ago who carries her MiniLops around like babies...craddled in her arm on their back...I tried that with my Silver Foxes to see if they would be calmer that way...in the words of Madea..."put the H to the L, No!" They was having none of that! <sigh>

Frecs, it does take time to get them to that point, especially if they're fully grown when you try it. Anything that's new to them is going to be like that.

For some rabbits, they make a game of it. Nikita, my white satin buck, plays hard to get when I go to take him out of the cage, but then is all about the affection once he's out. Then there is the cal satin buck I bought in IL in February. For the longest time, he wanted absolutely nothing to do with being handled. I was persistent and firm about it, and while he still isn't particularly wild about being handled, he accepts it now as an inevitability, and the experience is much less hectic than it was when I bought him. I still refer to him as "knucklehead" because of the way he used to act.

Tina,

I handle that particular doe the way I do because she is the one that instigates the response. I will not tolerate any animal that puts their teeth on my flesh. All that does is lead to biting. Yes, this doe does act like she is afraid at times, but if I watch her eyes and ears, she is NOT afraid, she is trying to bluff me into NOT touching her. I don't handle her that way every time, only when she requires it, but I do keep my hand above her head so she will not have an opening to bite me. I will not act carelessly around her, and I will not set her up to fail simply because I ignore her attempts at dominating me. I do allow her to have her 'tude and will work with that up to a point, but at a certain point, my desires are paramont.

None of my other bunns behave that way ... the 2 English Angoras were hand raised by their breeders and are little love bunnies. The 2 I kept from the Satin doe's first litter that I hand raised are not like that at all either. The little doe chitters and chirps at me, when I open the cage top, she pops up to see what I have brought for her. Her brother, my little hotrod, is a loverboy ... he wants to be held, he wants to be petted, he wants to go in the grass pen, he wants to go back to his cage, whatever I want to do with him, he is up for it. The 14 kits I am raising right now are always watching and if I come anywhere near the cage/pen, they are all gathered to see what is going on.

This Satin doe was not handled as a kit, I got her at 8 weeks and she was never startled by me, nor was she ever "pushed" any further than she was willing to go. Her brother, however, was vicious and aggressive to the point that I had to butcher him 4 weeks after I got him due to an outright attack. He didn't just bite and let go, he launched himself across the cage at me when I was feeding and latched on to my finger and GROUND his teeth in my flesh! That kind of behavior will not be tolerated!

At the time, I wasn't sure if it was genetic or upbringing, but with the kits from his sister, they have proven that it was due to non-socialization by the breeder. That I can remedy, and have.

As for Cesar Milan, meh. I can appreciate his opinion on canine behavior, but his methods are not for me either.

As for your opinion about whether or not I am "dominating" this doe, oh, well, we can agree to disagree. This doe is a meat production doe, that is her value in my herd and when she crosses the line into outright aggression (if she ever does), then I will re-evaluate her value to my program. Meanwhile, I have one of her daughters ready to be bred, and will save another, and possibly a third, just in case she progresses into outright aggression.

AnnClaire":3vvvdx4a said:

Tina,

I handle that particular doe the way I do because she is the one that instigates the response. I will not tolerate any animal that puts their teeth on my flesh. <snip>

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I agree with that!

AnnClaire":3vvvdx4a said:

This Satin doe was not handled as a kit, I got her at 8 weeks and she was never startled by me, nor was she ever "pushed" any further than she was willing to go. Her brother, however, was vicious and aggressive to the point that I had to butcher him 4 weeks after I got him due to an outright attack. He didn't just bite and let go, he launched himself across the cage at me when I was feeding and latched on to my finger and GROUND his teeth in my flesh! That kind of behavior will not be tolerated!

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I suspect my four were not handled by the breeder I got them from, either. Fortunately, they haven't been as aggressive as these you are describing!

AnnClaire":3vvvdx4a said:

At the time, I wasn't sure if it was genetic or upbringing, but with the kits from his sister, they have proven that it was due to non-socialization by the breeder. That I can remedy, and have.

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I'm glad it proved not to be genetics.

AnnClaire":3vvvdx4a said:

As for your opinion about whether or not I am "dominating" this doe, oh, well, we can agree to disagree. This doe is a meat production doe, that is her value in my herd and when she crosses the line into outright aggression (if she ever does), then I will re-evaluate her value to my program. Meanwhile, I have one of her daughters ready to be bred, and will save another, and possibly a third, just in case she progresses into outright aggression.

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I understand what you are saying. I probably would handle it different but that doesn't mean my way is better. Just different.

For me, it all comes down to the possible need for me to reach in and handle the animal. If an injury were to occur, I need to be able to handle the animal without fear of being savaged. Yes, an animal in pain is more likely to bite, but that is different than being a biter out of improper handling.

Like I said, this doe is trying to bluff me and if I let her do that, I will never be able to trust her responses.

One bluff that I do let her get away with because she is actually displaying play behavior is when she dashes around the play pen before she lets me pick her up. I started modifying that behavior now that the carrots are large enough for me to pluck a leaf ... and she really, really likes carrot leaves. Today, I took one in the pen with me and waited for her to come get it ... she charged and barked and thumped at me, but the carrot leaf got the better of her :lol: For the first time in 3 weeks, she let me pick her up without the dashing around So, no more carrot leaf treats in her cage, only in the pen until I can walk in and pick her up without it.

The whole notion that you absolutely cannot curb the behavior of any rabbit that shows aggression is simply not true. While there are always the occasional rabbit which will not settle down, the vast majority of rabbits can be made more comfortable with handling.

With the onset of summer just ahead of us and the heat of the season already upon much of the country already, it's important to understand that handling them in the middle of the day isn't particularly smart to begin with. Think of the time of day when you're most likely to be annoyed then imagine someone coming around and further annoying you and you can easily draw the picture of why rabbits tend to be tempermental during the heat of the day. Many breeders will argue that there is a health issue involved with daytime handling, as well.

As Otter Satin said previously, you have to let that rabbit know that you are the alpha. In the case of the overly aggressive buck previously mentioned with the lunging across the cage and biting you, it may be as simple as keeping a plastic carton or tin can nearby his cage, and bonking him on the bridge of the nose every time he does it for a few days in order to let him get the picture. I have a Cal Satin buck which I purchased earlier this year who tried it with me, and after several days in a row of having a plastic coffee can hitting him on the nose, he settled down and now can be handled quite readily. It does take patience, but above all else, it takes persistence. Also, WHEN you work with your rabbits can be as important to curbing the behavior as HOW you do so.

SatinsRule, if you are responding to me , about that aggressive buck, he had plenty of aversion 'therapy', but the calculated attack and latching on and grinding his teeth in my flesh were enough to convince me that at 4 months, this was only going to progress.

Personally, I handle all my rabbits at all times of the day ... all but the one doe are eager to be handled and petted. She is getting better, and has only bit once when she had a litter and I was careless ... my fault, not hers And, it was just a nip and release, not an attack.

I do bring a "bribe" with me when I handle the rabbits any time other than feeding time, so they are willing to be picked up and moved to the run pen, groomed (EAs), whatever ... the two bucks even rattle their doors they are so eager to get out to run :lol:

Ann, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. I've listened to this conversation time and time again, and I've run into too many people who will give up on a rabbit at the first sign of aggression because they're simply not emotionally equipped to confront it or even try to correct it.

The buck you're describing sounds an awful lot like my Cal Satin buck. He was absolutely aggressive beyond belief, but a few nose bridge encounters with the plastic Maxwell House coffee tub and he realized that it would only get worse for him if he continued. He still isn't crazy about being handled, but he's manageable now, and it is something which pleasantly surprised the breeder I bought him from who acknowledged that he displayed handling issues when he was at his barn. The buck has a lot of good breeding qualities, that's why he was sold to me instead of being culled, and the previous owner knew he would likely change if his new owner took the time to work with him. I have done so and it's about to pay huge dividends for me.

I have a Red Satin doe that I picked up last year. She wasn't wild about being handled when I first bought her, and even lunged at and bit me a few times. Anything would spook or set her off into a fit of rage. That picture on my avatar? That was her just a couple of days after I brought her home. Today, she meets me at her cage door and begs to be taken from her cage when I go out to the barn for feeding, cleaning, watering or just basic lookovers. I could walk to the other end of town and back with that rabbit on my chest and she'd likely never budge. Had I just given up on her, I would have missed out on one of the friendliest rabbits I've ever owned. Persistence and hard work for a few weeks went a long way with her.

One thing you'll realize about me is that I'm not a charter member of the "cull first, ask questions later" club. I give every rabbit I raise the benefit of the doubt before eliminating them from the herd, and it's worked pretty well for me over the years.

Yes, I agree that most issues a rabbit has are caused by people, either by not handling enough or handling too roughly. Like I said, I had that buck for 4 weeks and the finger across the bridge of the nose several times, the pinning to the floor, the take-him-out-and-carry each time I fed and watered, moving his cage from one end of the line of cages to the other, etc. simply did not work. He bit me 3 different times and 2 times I went out of my way to find reasons for the attacks, but the 3rd one was no mistake. I really didn't want to send him to freezer camp as I wanted him for my meat rabbit line, but after going through the steps above and still having an aggressive attack rather than a fear-based attack, I simply could not take the chance that his attitude was a combination of upbringing and genetics and raise more with the same issue. I also would have sent the doe (sister) to freezer camp if her kits showed the same tendancies, but they are quite loveable and easily tamed and very people oriented with the way I raise them.

I am sure there are many others who will read our posts and be able to make a more informed decision about a similar rabbit in their rabbitry.

This experience is also why I handle my kits the way I do ... bring the nest box in during the days of the second week, keep them in day and night except for feeding time during the third week, begin weaning at the end of the third week and complete it by the middle of the fourth week, and total hand raising in the house until the hormones kick in and time for seperation, then out to a grow out cage until freezer camp or the pedigreed ones are graded for sale/show.

Because of this, I have sold 11 of the 17 meat rabbits from the last 2 litters :lol: I am pleased that all of the folks who purchased these non pedigreed babies commented on how friendly and tame they were, and a couple were purchasing them for children as young as 7-8 years old. I did stress that at that age, the children needed complete adult supervision when handling the bunnies. And, told the parents and older kids to join Rabbit Talk if they had any questions and couldn't get ahold of me, as it is the best and most child-friendly forum :lol: (shameless plug for such a great forum!!!!)

Besides, the way I do it, I get to play with babies all the time! What more could anyone ask for??

Yeah Ann, it's pretty neat when you get newly weaned kits who take to being handled more readily day after day. I have a very nice litter of blacks coming on which I can hardly wait to get across a show table. They're all pretty easy to handle, too, but like you indicated, it took starting them at an early age to make that happen.

That litter of blues and a broken which I've posted on the breed forum? They'll be a work in progress when they're weaned in about 3 weeks, THEN I should have a litter each of whites and cals coming behind them. I have a busy summer ahead of me, but I'm looking very much forward to it.

One of the reasons I am raising the kits as I do is so they can go into just about any housing situation and do well. One little boy bought his rabbit from me on friday and on monday came over to show me how well it was doing in learning to walk on a leash! :lol: I also make sure the older ones learn how to use a lixit and a roller ball water jug.

And, I went to the feed store today and the owner actually thanked me! :lol: he has sold 4x as much rabbit pellets as he did this time last year Needless to say, he was out and had to ask me to come back on Thursday when his order comes in!